The Super Pershing did see combat

[offtaskagain]

I just finished reading "Death Traps", by Belton Cooper. For those not familiar with him, he was the ordnance liasion officer for CCB, 3rd AD, from Normandy through the end. I searched the forum a bit and it doesn't seem anyone here has ever brought this up. Apparently the Super did see some combat. It was delivered to CCB sometime in March '45. Cooper was ordered to fabricate additional armor for the beast that by the description of it would have made it more than a match for the KT. I'll just quote from the book for this.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> The well-equipped German fabricating shop contained several large pieces of inch and half boiler plate. We decided to use a laminated design for the glacis plate. We cut two pieces of the boiler plate and fashioned a V shape to fit over the V shape of the glacis plate and the lower front plate. The top glacis plate was set at thirty-eight degrees from the horizontal, which gave fifty-two degrees from the vertical and was considered to be the critical angle to generate a ricochet. This gave an air gap of zero at the top and approximately three inches at the knuckle, where the bottom front plate came in contact.

A second boiler plate was cut in a similar fashion and set at a thirty degree angle extending out over the first plate. Where it came in contact with the bottom plate, it left a gap of seven to eight inches. We wound up with four inches of cast armor on the original glacis plate and two inch-and-a-half pieces of boiler plate with an air gap in between.

[snip]

We then cut a section from the faceplate of a knocked-out German Panther and trimmed it to three and half inches thick by five feet long by two feet wide. We cut a large hole in the middle to accomodate the gun tube and two smaller holes on each side to accomodate the gun tube and two smaller holes on each side to accomodate the coaxial machine gun and the telescopic site. We slipped this plate over the gun barrel, brought it down against the mantlet, and welded it firmly all the way around. <hr></blockquote>

A few pages later he writes about the one time it actually saw combat, somewhere between the Weser river and Northeim. The Super M26 fired 1 shot at a vehicle on the forward slope of a wooded hill about fifteen hundred yards away. The object exploded in a huge fireball but no one ever investigated to see what they had destroyed. Apparently it never saw anymore action.

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: panzerwerfer42 ]</p>

[offtaskagain]

Bumpitty bump bump.

[Pak40]

sounds more like target practice rather than combat, so for any practical purpose, it didn't really see any combat - at least not enough to warrent it's supposed effectiveness as a Heavy Tank.

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

sounds more like target practice rather than combat, so for any practical purpose, it didn't really see any combat - at least not enough to warrent it's supposed effectiveness as a Heavy Tank.<hr></blockquote>

It did travel with a divisional task force for at least a month of time the division was in action, and didn't prove abnormally prone to breakdowns at least.

[Mattias]

Is that really what Belton wrote PzW42? I seem to remember that the crew were forced to be very careful when driving in order to not overtax the drive train or overheat the engine.

Especially since Belton & Co. had slapped on additional armour on the poor thing.

M.

[busboy]

Hello!

I'm the local Pershing nut, something of a lurker here these days, though.

The Super Pershing DID see combat...barely. Infact the incident is mentioned in "Death Traps"

I've got the incident noted in several books, this taken from M26/M46 Pershing Tank 1943-1953 (an Osprey book, by Steven Jzaloga and friends):

"[talks about additional boiler plate armor put on] This tank got to fire its gun in anger on only one occasion on April 4, 1945 - when it engaged and destroyed a German armored vehicle, probably a Tiger or Panther, at a range if 1500 yards, during the fighting along the Weser River."

Also, to give you an idea of how powerful that 90mm gun was ("able to penetrate 220mm of armor at 1000 yards at 30 degrees [using tungsten rounds]")

They test fired the gun at a KOed JadgPanzer IV. I forget the range they put the tank at, but the round went clear through the length of the AFV (Mr. Cooper in Death Traps gives the size of all sizable metal components that the round went through) and imbedded itself in an earth mound behind the tank deestroyer "too deep to be recovered."

In other words, the gun was powerful enough to KO King Tigers reliably (CM undermodels the gun, according to my numbers. I'd compinsate for this by giving it an all tungsten load-out)

[Gen-x87H]

In other words, the gun was powerful enough to KO King Tigers reliably (CM undermodels the gun, according to my numbers. I'd compinsate for this by giving it an all tungsten load-out)"

If it had tungsten.

I thought this game was about realism? So why would we just give the Super Pershing all tungsten when that would never be the case?

Gen

[busboy]

Sorry, I guess I didn't explain my logic enough.

I admit that I don't have the penetration data for the "standard AP" rounds, but considering that we're dealing with an 80 caliber 90mm gun with increased propellant loadout, and given the monstrious penetration of tungsten rounds given in the example, I'd think the normal AP round would be potent enough to knock out any German vehicle, except perhaps the Jadgtiger under certian conditions.

Looking at the CM penetration table for the super Pershing, and after firing tests between Super Pershins and KTs, I consider CM's Super Pershing gun to be undermodeled. Having seen NUMEROUS such debates about over/undermodeling (which are of course healthy and inevitable) I chose to keep quiet about my opinion rather than get into a debate where everyone might find different numbers...ect. Besides, the game producer has final say, and they've moved on, so there was no point in bringing it up anyway.

But in my little toy battles, that still leaves the 90mm gun underpowered (in my opinion anyway) So, I compinsate for this by supplying my Super Pershings with all Tungsten AP rounds. I am attempting to simulate the power that [i think] the gun lacks in the game. In other words, I'm pretending its normal AP behaving at realistic capability.

I'm a historical accuracy nut myself. I simply do this for my own benefit and offer it as a possability for others. In reality though, the Super Pershing plays almost no role in CM other than for free for all PBEMs or really funky scenarios that only see one hard drive [i.e. mine.]

Of course, I haven't played CM in months due to a graphics problem related to my NVIDIA 32 meg card and my Mac. Despite all the advice of folks here...it don't work. (I miss CM too...I love this game.)

One more thing FWIW, CM undermodeles the armor of the Super Pershing by a fairly wide margin (based on the added boiler plate and Panther glasis.)

[Bastables]

Rune has a entire senario devoted to the incident from at least a year ago.

[JonS]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bastables:

[Q]another example of his poor spelling[Q]<hr></blockquote>

Oi! You don't have time to be posting here - where's me turn, godammit!?!

[Funker Vertinox]

You know... Actually there is a rumor that a lone pitiful Nashorn took out the only Pershing lost in combat.

Well pitiful in it's armor and protection but I suppose that 88mm packed a nasty punch through the Pershing.

[Cpt. Mack]

hi

[Gordon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Funker Vertinox:

You know... Actually there is a rumor that a lone pitiful Nashorn took out the only Pershing lost in combat.

Well pitiful in it's armor and protection but I suppose that 88mm packed a nasty punch through the Pershing. <hr></blockquote>

It's not a rumor. The Nashorn ambushed a Pershing at "point-blank range" and the round set off the turret ammunition. I think just about anything would die from a point-blank 88 hit.

A Pershing was "comparable" to a Panther in terms of armor protection, not a King Tiger.

Gordon

[busboy]

There were several Pershings abandoned, but all were repairable accept for the unlucky one that took the point blank L/71 88 round.

BTW, I think I put the 90mm on the super pershing as L/80? Forgive me, its L/70.