Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 i thought of this topic while in another post,but will repeat some of it here. i came to understand that the swastika flag(wich holds no special meaning for me) is banned in germany. germany is also a big war gaming country i was told as well, wich for some reason does'nt surprise me, Rommel once published a book on infantry tactics in 1937 and it became a best seller in that country. scary i know, hehe. well to get to the point, if the soviet hammer and sickle flag is being modeled, why not the authentic german world war 2 flag? the Soviets committed the same atrocites as the scumbag nazis under the leadership of Lenin and Stalin. here is my take on it. the waffen SS symbol is in the game. i know that the waffen SS were an elite fighting unit and were not invloved in the atrocities, the SS were. but....they share the same symbol. so....is it is ok to have the symbol of those who played a huge part in all of the awful crimes against humanity, then why is it not ok for the symbol of the country that ordered them? my point being is that from either point of view, in a logical sense, should'nt either both the swastika and ss symbol be modeled, or niether be modeded? i myself would not take offense to seeing a swastika in a game that depicts a world war 2 setting. a realistic one at that. if swastikas were modeled in the game, i do not beleive that people like myself who are sickened by what that regime did would suddenly be swayed to thinking that it's cool by seeing a stupid symbol. On the other side of the coin, i also do not believe that morons who actualy support the swastikas 20th century meaning, will suddenly wake up and realize how awful it is, if it is not modeled in the game. any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 Your trying to use logic to explain why politicions make the laws that they do. Logic and politicions don't go together. Ask the Lebonese why if a man forces a goat to have sex with him the government kills the goat and not the man?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 i have lots of quetions about a country that had to pass legislature about sex with goats, was this an epidemic in that country? yikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 BTS doesn't make laws, just lives with them... Any way, there are "real" nazy flag mods for download, so, if the player wants them, it can have them :cool: If you are loking for a political answer, I would advice, the general forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 How one feels about a law is not that important. What matters is whether one chooses to obey it or not. Or more to the point, follow a course of action that could be construed as running afoul, usw.... I am not an expert on German law. But I was under the impression that while flags with the swastika were not illegal per se in Germany, the public display of them was. As a practical matter the use of swastikas on children's toys is forbidden, and computer games like Wolfenstein and Combat Mission are treated as such for commercial purposes. On a more practical note, I shall never forget that gasp that I heard the one time I showed the game to my girlfriend so that she could comment on the landscapes. The fact of the matter is, the swastika offends many people, even when they exist for reasons of verisimilitude. The younger generation cannot comprehend the visceral reaction they provoke. Given that several mods of the wartime german flag already exist (in both the navy/national version and the more common plain red version), it doesn't make a lot of sense to complain about the use of the commerce-friendly flag. It would be a different story if something in the game made it impossible to use historically correct symbols as was recently the case over at IL 2 (until someone figured out how to override the censorship programming). I am not familiar with this bit of folklore about Lebanese goats; it sounds suspiciously racist and of questionable taste. Lebanese women are probably the most attractive in the Middle East, and left to their own devices and transplanted French culture, middle class Lebanese are considerably more sophisticated than their American counterparts. And on that note, I never thought I would ever use the expression, but HI MOM ! Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 If you're speaking of the Waffen SS symbols in the scenario listing, you're wrong. They are slightly modified S's, but not the 'sig runes' of the actual SS. Yeah, it's a minor difference graphically, but apparently it is enough to please the censors. As for the elimination of the Swastika flag... a necessary accomodation for the censors also. Why is it outlawed in Germany ? I don't know the actual date of the laws that enforce this (and whatever else that has updated them), but you could probably understand the desire to eliminate any symbols that represented a evil and tragic part of Germany's past. The only context where the symbol is allowed to exist is for historical purposes. Any other medium (entertainment and political included) is considered inappropriate for the display of the Nazi Swastika. After WWII the occupying Allies made sure that the populace was quite aware of their guilt for the atrocities of the Third Reich. It is quite easy to understand the reasoning for the current laws. While 56 years is a lifetime for almost everyone on this forum, there are still people alive today who have vivid memories of the terror associated with the Nazis - and the Swastika is an all too powerful reminder (not to mention a rallying point for racists and anarchists in modern Germany). While such censorship may be abhorrent to you and the American ideals of 'freedom of expression' it is a slightly different case for Germans. While it isn't the same, the closest example in America may be the ban of the 'Dixie' flag in/on official government offices. I believe the state of Georgia has removed the 'Dixie' portion of their state flag to shed the image of the 'old South'. If you want the Swastika real bad I believe that it is available for download on CMHQ (the original Beta Demo had Swastikas). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 i was'nt complaining about it, just discussing it, the only complaint i have, and is a minor one, is about everygame giving werhmacht forces grey uniforms, they wore green dammit!!! hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 Actually Steve has some very good sources (original uniforms I believe) that indicate that the late war German Heer uniforms were a 'field grey'. They were also made of a less resiliant fabric than the uniforms made earlier in the war. As for the coloring of early war Heer uniforms, they could have been a 'german field green'. I don't know the details on that (I've seen color plates that show the uniforms being green, but it is a bit hard to say just how accurate some color photography is from that period). Uh... if that was any point of discussion you were interested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 i have one more quetion, in return to castle wolfenstien the sawstika is all over the place, since the game takes place behind german enemy line in 1943 i think, it kind of makes sense. so if it can be modeled, and not censored in one game, why not another?, is my question. i can live without it, it's realy not a big deal to me, it's just thier does'nt seem to be any consistancy of the so called ban of it. it does'nt matter that it's a swastika, it could be a flag of a purple polka dotted hippo and i'd have the same question to the inconsitancies of the banned/not banned in some games for whatever reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: i have one more quetion, in return to castle wolfenstien the sawstika is all over the place, since the game takes place behind german enemy line in 1943 i think, it kind of makes sense. so if it can be modeled, and not censored in one game, why not another?, is my question. i can live without it, it's realy not a big deal to me, it's just thier does'nt seem to be any consistancy of the so called ban of it. it does'nt matter that it's a swastika, it could be a flag of a purple polka dotted hippo and i'd have the same question to the inconsitancies of the banned/not banned in some games for whatever reasons.<hr></blockquote> Look, if the swastika is in one game and not another it would seem that there are two possibilities: (1) BTS doesn't want to take any chances with law suits and/or losing sales in Germany so they CHOSE not to use it while the other developers are willing to take their chances OR (2) Return to Castle Wolfenstein isn't being sold in Germany. Finally, trust me, the emblem that has come to symbolize the deeds of the Nazi party is NOT the same as "a flag of a purple polka dotted hippo". The significance of that emblem is apparently beyond our powers to convey to you, but suffice it to say that there are thousands, perhaps (God help us) millions all around the world who still follow and cherish that emblem. And THAT'S why it's illegal in Germany whether you understand it or not. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schrullenhaft: Actually Steve has some very good sources (original uniforms I believe) that indicate that the late war German Heer uniforms were a 'field grey'. They were also made of a less resiliant fabric than the uniforms made earlier in the war. As for the coloring of early war Heer uniforms, they could have been a 'german field green'. I don't know the details on that (I've seen color plates that show the uniforms being green, but it is a bit hard to say just how accurate some color photography is from that period). Uh... if that was any point of discussion you were interested in.<hr></blockquote> German uniforms until 1943-44 were a definite shade of gray-green that tended more to green than grey; I've handled period pieces. Late war stuff did tend towards slate grey, and I've handled original tunics that were brown. The Germans did not have consistency in their uniforms - there was no such thing as an "M43 tunic" as so many collectors state. They simply had the Field Blouse, which changed over time until the replacement - the M1944 Field Uniform -was introduced. See my site at http://members.home.net/deutschesoldaten for much more detail. Incidentally, trousers in 1939-1940 were NOT green, but "steingrau" - stone grey, a dark slate grey like you will find today in dress pants. In 1940, they were changed to field grey (green), and by 1944 were again grey, though a lighter shade than the 1939 era trousers. German industry was really a coalition of cottage industries, and no two factories - be it tanks, helmets, or underwear - made things the same. Calling what the Germans wore "uniform" is a misnomer by 1944 - it was anything but. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 joe, i fully understand what the 20th centuary meaning of the swastika is. before the damn nazis, i read that it was a universal good luck symbol and can even be found in very old jewish temples. i'm not debating the awfulness that the symbol came to stand for in 20th centuary, there is nothing you have to convey to me about that, it's pretty self explanatory. my only point was about the non universal banning, wich makes sense if wolfenstein is not being sold in germany. but......the sickle and hammer also represents the same awful things to millions of people. Lenin and Stalin made the suffering of the people within their boundaries surpass all in history. i'm not here to say one is less evil then the other, my point is actualy the opposite. the Soviets under Lenin and Stalin actualy killed more people, and were just as anti-semtic as nazi germany. and their regimes were in place longer, Stalin was actualy ready to start another purge in the early 50's but luckily for the citizens of the soviet union, he died before he could set it in motion. Stalin was every bit as anti jew as Hitler, i'm not saying one was better then the other, they were both the, same animal, but why is no one offended by the hammer and sycle and what it came to represent in the soviet union and in the rest of the world? yes we all know what the nazis did was wrong, but why does everyone seem to overlook what the soviets did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>but......the sickle and hammer also represents the same awful things to millions of people.<hr></blockquote> BUT ... the Soviets didn't make symbol of the hammer and sickle illegal did they? THEY (meaning the Soviet government) didn't have any issue with what THEY did and THEY won the war so there wasn't any outcry (at the time) about the things they did. So there were no laws passed which could influence the future behavior of gaming developers. The GERMAN government did make the swastika illegal for many reasons, some honorable, some just political. THAT'S the only issue at hand in your question, this is not the forum in which to discuss the relative merits/evils of the Nazi/Soviet/American/British systems and history. YOUR question was about the use of the swastika in CM ... I hope we've answered it. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 yep, and i agree with your last post. i just wanted to see if my assumtions were right like i figured. i'm pretty ignorant to things such as german laws and what not but figured it was something of that nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 Dorosh, why did'nt the germans stick with green? did'nt it provide better camoflage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 Aaaargh! Not again. The dreaded swastika debate... Just a few days before there was the same stuff on the Il2 forum. As already pointed out the laws here in Germany forbids the use of the Swastika in a non-historical, non-eductional context. As CM is per definition still a "game" it was BTS decision to not implement them in order to get no legal problems. Thanks to the open architecture of CM it's quite easy to modidy BMPs, so if you want a "historical" flag, download one. If you want to write a book about the history of a Panzer division and include pictures of Swastikas in it, no problem. If you watch a WW2 movie with swastikas in it, no problem. Actually, I just a read a mag that contained no less than 10 swastikas in different articles about WW2 and neo-nacism. Many guys, especially the non-europeans (ahem...) don't understand the purposes of these laws. I've heard so much BS about this topic ("the germans want to hide their history, oh my god! my personal freedom is attacked, CENSORSHIP"! yaddayaddayadda... Games like Return to castle W. are modified by the publisher if they are to be sold in Germany. In RTCW you're not fighting against Nazis, but against the "clan of the wolfs" and Heinrich Höller... If you think that's strange, look at "Giants". In the US version of this game the naked godess Delphi got a shirt so as not to trouble american sentiments... Here, no swastikas, there, no boobs. Strange world, isn't it? [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 indeed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Viniga Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> i know that the waffen SS were an elite fighting unit and were not involved in the atrocities<hr></blockquote> Since no one else has picked up on this: The Waffen SS were indeed involved in atrocities. I realise it is not the purpose of this forum to discuss them but when I see some statements it sends a shiver... Remember Oradour-sur-Glane, you can still visit the town, as it was left, after a visit by Das Reich. Oradour-sur-Glane for some introductory reading (The opinions of this site are not necessarily mine). The guilt or innocence of the various arms of the German armed forces remains somewhat controversial, and I would ask posters to take care. With regards to the use of the Swastika - I feel that it still remains a potent and powerful symbol in politics today throughout Europe. In that context I have a problem with it. If used within an historical context I have no problem. An historical wargame - well I feel CMBO has it right, as already posted you can get a swastika if you want. The Soviet Flag, due to them being the victors I suppose, has not become a potent symbol of evil and oppression worldwide in the way the Swastika has and so is treated differently politically, right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Crierie Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Von Viniga: The Soviet Flag, due to them being the victors I suppose, has not become a potent symbol of evil and oppression worldwide in the way the Swastika has and so is treated differently politically, right or wrong.<hr></blockquote> Tell that to the 50 million people killed by COMMUNISM since 1918...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 you have a point there ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted December 19, 2001 Author Share Posted December 19, 2001 this is geting way off topic though. my question was answered about the flags. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted December 19, 2001 Share Posted December 19, 2001 The point is that as far as including swastikas into computer games goes, the symbols or crimes related to communism are totally irrelevant. This comparison and several other have been made a thousand and one times on forums like this but still, as has been pointed out in this thread, the fact remains that the reasons for banning the swastika are uniquely linked to the time, place and political situation prevailing when this legislation was passed. Provided one has a clue about what things were like back then it doesn't take much imagination to see why this kind of infringement of the civil liberties was considered necessary. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Gold Posted December 20, 2001 Share Posted December 20, 2001 This has been an instering and informational thread that has progressed without the usual flame throwing that normaly accompanies this type of discussion. I do have the following comments: Waffen SS = Malmedy (Any questions?) On the subject of flags, to the victor goes the spoils. The Soviets won WWII so their flag wasn't on the chopping block, the Nazi's lost. The ban on symbols was designed to combat the possoble rise of a 'new' Nazi movement. The Germans also demolished Spandau prison after the lase prissoner was released in order to keep it from becomming a shrine to neo-nazis. While it is cencorship, there are many, many, things that you aren't allowed to say or show in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 20, 2001 Share Posted December 20, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: Dorosh, why did'nt the germans stick with green? did'nt it provide better camoflage?<hr></blockquote> It wasn't a choice. By 1944, the Germans were using raw wood fibre in their uniform "wool" - there just wasn't enough high quality material to go around. Leather was also severely cut back - equipment was made out of cotton webbing or Press-stoff (artificial leather). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted December 20, 2001 Share Posted December 20, 2001 I have also read in numerous accounts that due to the large number of companies producing uniforms, there was a VERY LARGE range of acceptable coloration, even in the early years, going from a "smoky gray" all the way towards "sea foam" I think basically, there were so many differnt colors that it would be impossible to define one as correct. Adding to that the limited resources as the war continues and you see perhaps one of the most diverse and eclectic armies of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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