Redwolf Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I wonder whether some artillery experts could shed some light on this. I wonder about some aspects of ICM ammunition: Is "DPICM" something else than just "ICM"? Caliber and nation: ICM consists of lots of little cylinders the size of photo film boxes. So, if you have smaller caliber ICM, like 122mm or 105mm, do they have smaller seperate items, or do they have less items or both? Likewise, is there a different between Soviet-made ICM and US ICM in that respect? How do they ensure the cylinders are face-down when they hit a surface, anyway? GPS ? What is the TacOps model for different kinds of ICM? Same model for all just less probablity of kill? Or some real difference, like different efficientcy against soft and hard targets? Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorH TacOps Developer Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 >What is the TacOps model for different kinds of ICM? Same model for all just less >probablity of kill? Or some real difference, like different efficientcy against soft and hard >targets? Same model for all except that small calibers of carrier shell cover less ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael** Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 to make the cylinders face down!(?)...one word aerodynamics 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rindorf1 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 As a retired redleg I'll take a shot at this one. DPICM stands for Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions. Each submunition is a anti-vehicle shape charge. Fairly good aginst thin skinned and light armor vehicles. Possible to do damage against heavier armor but truly it would be a lucky shot. The submunition also fragments to act as an anti-personnel munition. Because they cover a wide area they are devastating against personnel. The shape charge has a small ribbon attached to the back and the detonator. This ribbon keeps the open end of the shape charge oriented toward the ground. try it with a small block of wood and a ribbon. If you tie it on one end and toss it up the end without the ribbon will hit the ground first. Generally, the larger the munition the more submunitions it carries. There may be some difference in the size of the submunitions between calibers and countries. There is a balance between coverage and effectiveness. I hope that answers your question without getting into sensitive areas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hub Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Another type of munition coming into service is the EFP (Explosively Formed Projectile)- a disk of tantalum is exploded downwards by a shaped charge that changes the disk's shape into an inverted cone with a bulbous end on it. The cone acts as the stabilator, and the heavy bulb acts as a penetrator. It is driven downwards at hypersonic speeds, and can apparently easily penetrate the roof and deck armour of AFV's. http://www.dres.dnd.ca/ResearchTech/Products/MilEng_Products/RD95017/index_e.html http://www.arasvo.com/efp.htm [ February 11, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Hub ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 US Army 105mm DPICM: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m915.htm US Army 155mm DPICM: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m864.htm ICMs come in a variety of types. DPICM is good for infantry or armour APICM (anti-pers) is particularly good against infantry, but not much chop against armour. FASCAM ICM (FAmily of SCatterable Mines) is for rapid deployment of minefields. There are some others too. The ICM family seems to have the common characteristic of being a cargo carrying shell, and 'better' (or improved) than straight HE. Regards Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Thanks for the links and other info. From the pictures it seems the submunition is the same size for US 105mm and 155mm. It never occured to me how few charges are in a shell. A friend of mine handed me a few Russian-made 122mm and 152mm ICM shells for investigation. Anyone knows how to open these things without damaging them? My friend wants them back intact, says he needs them soon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWilson Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 "Anyone knows how to open these things without damaging them ?" Rap it sharply on the nose with a hammer. The shell will then automaticlly 'disassemble'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil- Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by DaveWilson: "Anyone knows how to open these things without damaging them ?" Rap it sharply on the nose with a hammer. The shell will then automaticlly 'disassemble'. I know you're joking, but you should add a smiley or something so people dont really even for a second think you are serious about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael** Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 the little ribbons that rindorf spoke about... i really hate those! Imagine comming into a wood where these little f...ers still hanging in the trees!(so much for a save convoi route!!) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Calambro Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 The dud rate is the biggest problem with any type of ICM - a problem too many planners don't take into account when they want to sent troops rapidly through an area recently bombarded with the stuff. Forested areas and soft grass or ground are especially bad because the bomblets detonators have to strike with a certain amount of impact to function, just like any pressure mine. Those that don't detonate automatically become a mine hazard to anyone or thing that could disturb them. Our folks are working to find better ways to remediate the dud hazards, but 100% will probably never be achieved. I hope redwolf's friend, the guy with the 122mm and 152mm bomblets, was really kidding because if those are live, anything could set them off, even after many years of stability during storage. :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 Of course I was joking. Not especially brilliant humor, it seems now. Thats for the replies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Calambro Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Sorry about the question. I work on a training post as a safety person and I am always amazed at how too many people think some of the "cool souvenirs" laying around post are okay to take home because they have already been "expended or fired" or are too old to still be dangerous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorH TacOps Developer Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 In 1975 I was with Fox 2/3 in Guam taking care of Vietnamese refugees. At that time Guam was still covered with unexploded ordnance from WWII. A surprise locker inspection produced a five or six inch artillery or naval gun round with its undamaged nosecap fuse still in place. The young Marine was heard to say, "Its OK Sir, its a dud, I threw it down several times to be sure." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimstick Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 *Warning: This message contain simi-technical information that may bore all but the diehards out there!!! Hey! I’m a Redleg out here at Ft. Sill, OK. In response to your question on ICM and DPICM, the question I have for you is this: How much do you want to know? I mean, I could break out the TFT (firing tables), but they will be useless unless you have a AFATADs or BCS to run the simulation on, or a howitzer with the pro-jo's to play with! But, since most people don't have access to these "training aids" here goes: “Improved conventional munitions are base-ejection projectiles that consist of a mechanical time fuse and a body assembly containing a number of sub munitions. There are two types of ICM rounds, antipersonnel (AP) and dual-purpose (DP).” Number of sub munitions /projectile: ICM 105-mm Howitzer—18 M46 155-mm Howitzer---60 M46 203-mm Howitzer---104 M46 (Note: As of 1998, the 203-mm howitzer no longer exists in any active duty line unit). DPICM 155-mm Howitzer---88 (64 M42 DP bomblets and 24 M46 ICM grenades) 203-mm Howitzer---108 (No numbers available for mix of ICM/DP submunitions). The AP round is most effective against unwarned, exposed personeel [Dimstick: But what isn’t???] When the fuse functions, a black powder expelling charge forces the grenades out through the base of the projectile. Small vanes on the grenade flip upward, arming the grenade and stabilizing it in flight. When the striker plate (on the base of the grenade) contacts the ground, the grenade hurls upward 4–6 feet then detonates. The DP round is most effective against lightly armored vehicles and other material. However, it is also effective against personnel. After the grenade is ejected, a ribbon streamer arms and stabilized it. Upon impact, a shaped charge that can pierce light armor is detonated. Also, fragments which are effective against personnel are expelled. Anytime ICM or DPICM rounds are fired, between 2 and 3 percent of the sub munitions fail to detonate. About 50 percent of thee duds will be armed and may become a hazard to friendly personnel and equipment. The ICM or DPICM should not be fired into forests, mountainous areas (slope greater than 60%); or rocky, uneven terrain. This type of terrain may increase the dud rate the reduce the effectiveness of the round. Also, effectiveness is decreased by marshy terrain or a target area covered with deep snow or water.” The M42 can penetrate at least 4" of rolled homongenous steel. The M46 can penetrate at least 2.5". [Dimstick: I could give you the exact amounts and percentage of penetration vs. various modern and traditional armor types, and real nice video of its effects on T-64's and T-70's from a certain war we were in, but then I might have to kill you ] I hope this answers all your questions. Oh, and one other thing, the DPICM found in pro-jo's is effectivly the same as that found in MLRS rocket pods, with the exception that the rockets carry a LOT more of them (264 I think....I might need to look it up). I wish I could post some pictures of the submuntions, but you can do a yahoo search for the below FMs and see them yourself. The information in quotes is from FM 6-30 "Observed Fired", 16 July 1991. The non quoted information is paraphrased from 6-40 "FA Manual Cannon Gunnery" 23 April 1996 [Of which I helped write]. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorH TacOps Developer Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Great message. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Wotherspoon Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Major: Am I correct in recalling that the effectiveness of ICM is reduced in forests in TacOps? Given the dud rate, perhaps umpires should be putting down mine markers after each ICM salvo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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