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Running MG42 teams?


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If anyone played the board game ASL, you probably know that you could have your MG42 machine gun teams partialy disassemble the gun and increase their allocated movement points to run.

The gun could then still be fired as a light machine gun.

Is this misrepresenting the german MG42 team?

Or should this be something to consider incorporating into CM?

------------------

The counter-revolution,

people smilling through their tears.

Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years.

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I never played ASL, but I suppose it would be at least partly realistic. You could take off the tripod that was used to provide fire support, and fire it from a bipod.

I know the MG 34 fired from both a heavy, relativley fixed tripod, and a small bipod, and I think the MG 42 was the same way.

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No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. -Ender's Game

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Guest Germanboy

Ahh! My favourite topic. I am actually qualified to give you what amounts to an official answer:

MG42 teams can not run because of the amount of ammo they carry. To do what you propose (shooting from the hip, Rambo like) they would have to leave the ammo behind. I am also qualified to tell you now that a debate on this is pointless, and suggest doing a search. One of the all-time classic flamewars of this board centered around the topic.

It is not an issue of the tripod, ranging equipment, or the athleticity of strappy SS lads (with or without moustaches), but is an issue of ammunition. Squads can run with their HMG42s because they can split the ammo between lots of guys. So what you ask for is in effect modeled.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-11-2000).]

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Hi, guys :

This is what happened when I was in

the army. In an small exercise, I brought

my own rifle with 200 rounds, and carry

about 800 rounds of 7.62 mm ammo for the

MG team, in fact, I run a little faster than they did. By the way, when moving or running

during the combat, we don't disassemble

(am I spelling wrong ??) the MGs, only

in a long march with no enemy contact.

I am not trying to argue with you guys,

but just presenting my own experience.

------------------

Sgt. Huang

I LOVE my country, but my

government sucks.

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I was thinking about this just a while ago.

I'd like an option to dump most of the ammo and be able to run.

Or even dump the whole weapon and run.

Every now and then there's a situation when a hasty retreat would be in order.

Actully it's quite often that way when I'm in command. smile.gif

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Sergeant Huang wrote:

> In an small exercise, I brought my own rifle with 200 rounds, and carry about 800 rounds of 7.62 mm ammo for the MG team

Don't you mean the squad automatic? What you're describing, as Andreas points out, is modelled in CM. Squad autos can run, but support weapon teams carry much more ammo, and therefore cannot.

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That is what I have said before,I have been a machinegunner(MAG)

And my co-gunner and I had to carry 5 boxes of ammo(1250 rounds ) and the gun.

And we could run with it 200 or 300 meters if there was a need to do that.

But I think we have to lay down with the official statement from BTS(which is no running) and not starting this up again.

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No, not a squad MG on a bi-pod, it

is on a tri-pod, so I would like

to call it a "HMG" (although it is not

really so heavy for each men who carrying

it).

I am not trying to make BTS to let

the MG team run, just make things more

clearer.

------------------

Sgt. Huang

I LOVE my country, but my

government sucks.

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I didn't say they should be able to run and shoot. I'm saying they should be able to disassemble the weapon and run.

Then be able to fire it, once stopped, as a light machine gun.

Or assemble it and fire it with full affect.

So what were saying here is ASL, over all those years, was misrepresenting the MG42.

Right?

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Each squad has a machinegun, same one as the heavy mg squad, except it has a bipod, not the heavy tripod mount, and not as much ammo as the heavy version. Squads *can* run. The heavy MG42 squad (6 men) can not; the german MG42 tripod weighed 42 pounds (19 kg)alone. The MG42 weighs 25.5 pounds (11.5 kg). That's 67.5 pounds (30.5 kg) total for both the tripod and gun. You've got 1-2+ extra barrels, 4000 rounds of ammo.

"Unlike the US Army's pre-packaged ammunition, the Wehrmacht issued bulk-packed wooden cases of 1,000 rounds each to be loaded into the 50-round belts by hand or with a special hand-cranked machine.... Filled belts can be rolled into the 50-round assault drum which clips to the side of both the MG 34 and MG42. Several ammo belts can be joined and carried in the 250-round capacity reuseable metal ammo box."

"Reliable technical publications quote official German sources that put the effective range from the prone, bipod-supported position at approximately 800 to 1,000 meters. When fitted with the elaborate ...recoil -sprung tripod with telescopic sight, the weapon is capable of hitting a small grouping of man-sized targets with each 10-15-round burst at up to 3,000 meters (3 kilometers)."

Effect of a short burst from a MG42 on a 3-gallon paintcan from 100 yards....

mg42paintcan.jpg

from the book "German Automatic Weapons of WWII" by Robert Bruce. Highly recommended.

-johnS

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 11-12-2000).]

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Tiger, I read all those threads and heated debates.

What I'm saying here is there is a conflict between the ASL historical research and BTS historical reserach. Or maybe it would be just to much of a hassle for BTS to simulate it in CM.

I bet there were plenty of machine gun teams who hauled major ass from building to building during WWII. Maybe they didn't do a 100 yard dash, but they put more effort into it than "move normal".

So would it be wrong for machine gun teams to

run and then get fatigued, say after 20 or 30 meters?

Hell, I've ran with much heavier things than machine guns durng deployments to NTC and hohenfels.

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BTS has stated that the MG42 heavy MG squad in combat mission represents a pre-placed heavy mg in a prepared position. Since alot of what you see on the game-map is not 100% accurately modeled, one could safely assume that the walk-speed that heavy mg squads do have incorporates short trots from time-to time?

~johnS

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Tiger wrote:

> one could safely assume that the walk-speed that heavy mg squads do have incorporates short trots from time-to time?

This is an important point. Think about this in reality – would an MG team get their stuff together, walk calmly in a straight line to their objective, and then start firing the second they sit down? Of course not. They would be desperately trying to lug all their heavy kit, at the same time as trying to keep out of harm's way. The graphic you see may seem to be moving slowly, but in reality these guys would be maneuvring to avoid enemy fire, so if the graphics were 100% realistic you would be in no doubt that they're moving as fast as they can. They would also need time to set up at the other end, which is not modelled in the game, so you can take this to be incorporated into the moving time.

David

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IIRC there is something in the current infantry movement and fatigue model that precludes dialing in these rates to precisely. For instance while it is true and HMG team or a flame thrower guy could run a short distance he can't realistically run as far and as long as a regular infantry squad (Anyone who's done this stuff for real oughtta know this). But in current CM you can't have an HMG team run for say only 100 meters or dash across a road or at least run for only one turn before getting tired. Nor does the model current support the fact that the MG42 could still retain some firepower at a lessor rate in it's hand carried mode equal to it's squad carried counterpart. We hold out hope in CM2 for some of these enhancememnts and have talked about it in the beta group.

Also I would caution anyone who basis their historical perspectives on ASL, it's a great game but definately not something that should be used as a research source. In fact ASL having been around for so long and been so popular has convinced a lot of people that they are WW2 SME (Subject Matter Experts) just because they play ASL. (We used to get a lot of posts and threads on how things were based on WW2 "because I played ASL for 10 years").

Los

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LOS;

That is in fact the precise point I was trying to get at.

ASL, being the standard for WWII for so long, does indeed alow to much movement points to the MG42?

Many people, including myself, learned alot about WWII weapons from ASL, and never really questioned its accuracy.

(didn't have these nice little forums)

So it's possible we've been doing it wrong for so long, we think were doing it right.

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Guest Big Time Software

Another problem with ASL is that the "detaching" aspect, while technically possible (no question there), was something that would be unlikely under all but the most dire combat conditions. It all comes down to real world tactics.

The HMG, for all armies, was a SUPPORT weapon. It was not, repeat NOT, an assault weapon. In defense it would be positioned well to the rear of the MRL to provide long range defensive fire. If the MRL was breached, the HMG unit (if ordered to or found it prudent) would retreat. They would not detach the MG and go running at the enemy's flanks firing from the hip (especially with the heavier Allied guns smile.gif).

When used for an attack the HMG would be brought to a suitable location so as to support the assaulting infantry by, once again, engaging long range targets. By the time the infantry had closed the distance, the role of the HMG would, for the moment, be over. If the assaulting infantry ran into trouble, it would be the HMG's responsibility to either supress the enemy's strong points or provide cover for the infantry to withdraw. They would not detatch their MG and go running up with the assaulting infantry.

Note that in both roles the HMG unit is NOT supposed to be on the move during the engagement, except when things go really wrong. And even then, you should disengage forces in a timely manner so the heavy weapons units (like HMGs) are not put into a do or die situation where seconds count.

In addition, the crew was responsible for the retention of their equipment, and if they lived through the engagement WITHOUT retaining a central piece of equipment, there would be Hell to pay (right Los? biggrin.gif).

All in all, rules like what ASL has are too divorced from reality. Sure, I have no doubt that detatching the gun and dumping ammo happened, but as an exception and not as a rule. Problem is that rules like this are generally over used by the player, which results in ahistorical use of the unit. That is obviously something we do not wish to foster.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 11-13-2000).]

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