Concerns before buying

[RMM]

Just finished up a CMBN demo battle (SS v's Polish and Brits in a town) and while initially I was excited by it all, as things progressed I started to wonder:

I started to find that I needed to check *every* single unit's orders at the end of the command phase, because no matter what they had been previously issued, sometimes there would be extra move commands added onto what I had issued, or in one case, I could not get one unit to stay in a building or another to get in a specific building in the first place! They would always run off to some other spot close by but not the building! This went on for some 5 turns. Then, once I finally got them into the building, the next turn, they ran back out of it! There was no combat going on this whole time anywhere near them. I just wanted them to stand guard there in case. They kept wandering off, usually into open space where they could have been, conveniently mowed down! Is this a feature? The units in question were all in good order, and the only thing I could note was that they were spread out around the town and not usually in HQ contact. Towards the end, frankly, I started to just get tired of it and let them wander off, since there wasn't much enemy activity left, but that's hardly realistic and ruinous to any sort of organised defense against last-minute appearing enemy units!

There was one, infantry gun ordinance that the SS had. I had them setup with a covered arc, but when British infantry appeared along the edge of the orchard, within the arc, the crew never fired and were subsequently dispatched by said infantry! Any insight why they wouldn't have fired on the Brit infantry?

I take it there's no version of AFV overrun? I had one AFV stop right ontop (literally) of enemy infantry but nothing happened!

Can MG ammo bearer's possess and fire the MG they are attached to if the original crew are lost?

Thanks for any info and insight

[danfrodo]

the extra commands were because you had multiple units selected when you gave subsequent commands.  Or you double-clicked on a unit to select it, which brings up entire unit's formation.  Look at what unit symbols are highlighted in orange -- that's who's getting commands. 

That's not normal for AT gun either.   Any chance you set up an "armor arc" -- that would tell unit to only fire at armor. 

These issues you are having are just learning issues, CM does not behave like that.

[RMM]

1 minute ago, danfrodo said:

the extra commands were because you had multiple units selected when you gave subsequent commands.  Or you double-clicked on a unit to select it, which brings up entire unit's formation.  Look at what unit symbols are highlighted in orange -- that's who's getting commands. 

That's not normal for AT gun either.   Any chance you set up an "armor arc" -- that would tell unit to only fire at armor. 

These issues you are having are just learning issues, CM does not behave like that.

I'll check on the multiple selection; although I'm pretty sure I didn't have multiple units selected and doesn't explain the strange behaviour of some units to either not stay put or not entering the building. Since they were often not under Command (no link at all), is that a possibility, a feature of the game if not in command? On the other hand, there were other units that did stay put. Is this, possibly a morale issue ?

The INF gun was set for a normal covered arc, so who knows.

Good to know this isn't normal. I had the same behaviour on my Win10 laptop and Win7 desktop. Is it possible that in saving and reopening files or transferring between machines?...but on the other hand, I was getting this on my laptop when opening the file to continue the fight. Hmm

[danfrodo]

well, that is odd.  Troops not under fire basically never move.  unless it's a vehicle that sees a nasty threat -- like bren carrier sees a panther.

[Vacillator]

I remember playing that scenario in the demo.  I didn't really know what I was doing at the time so may have missed it, but I don't recall the behaviour described with the infantry. 

As far as I can remember my infantry gun didn't get into the action either, but I thought at the time that was due to lack of targets.  Did your arc cover the target both in angles and distance?

Unless someone says otherwise I don't think you can grind the enemy infantry under your tracks - I try to keep a healthy distance anyway if I can.

You may be able to recover the MG if your original crew are wounded.  Place the ammo carriers (or another infantry unit) 'on top' of the wounded crew and they should in a short while perform medic / buddy aid action, part of which is recovery of weapons / ammo.  No guarantees though, and I haven't tried it with ammo carrier units but I assume it's the same as for other infantry units.

As for buying the game, I would totally recommend it.

 

[CHEqTRO]

It could be that those are all old bugs that havent been corrected for the demo for as far as I am aware Battlefront doesnt update them.

Infact, just before I bought Battle for Normandy i also downloaded the demo, and it was still using the v1 (or v2, dont really remember) version of the game engine ( When i bought it, v3 had just been released).

There is an easy way to see if this is still the case. Do the sound contact icons have an interrogation sign or do they show an infantryman or tank silhouette?? If the former, the demo is still running an ancient version of the game engine

Edited September 18, 2020 by CHEqTRO

[Vacillator]

That's a valid point, demo is engine 3, game is now engine 4.  Not sure if that explains the behaviour though.

[Sgt Joch]

Hi, as mentioned above, units will ONLY execute the orders you give them. The only time they move on their own is if they perceive an imminent threat, are under fire and suffer a severe morale hit. As mentioned above, you highlighted all the units which the game interprets as giving the same order to every unit. A common mistake when first playing the game, but you quickly get used to it. Note that you can show all movement paths for all units with the alt+p hotkey which allows you to do a quick check before you hit GO.

[danfrodo]

I bought CMBN first ~5 years ago.  And still haven't played all of it, there's just so much if you get the big bundle.  Part of that is that I now have all the games except Afghanistan, so bounce between them.  You have hundreds of hours of epic battles -- jump in.  Learning curve just takes a little time; watch gameplay & tips videos from youtube, you'll be a pro very quickly.  And you'll still lose battles sometimes, that's what makes these games such an enduring challenge.

[RMM]

3 hours ago, Sgt Joch said:

Hi, as mentioned above, units will ONLY execute the orders you give them. The only time they move on their own is if they perceive an imminent threat, are under fire and suffer a severe morale hit. As mentioned above, you highlighted all the units which the game interprets as giving the same order to every unit. A common mistake when first playing the game, but you quickly get used to it. Note that you can show all movement paths for all units with the alt+p hotkey which allows you to do a quick check before you hit GO.

The Alt+P is a really good tip. Thanks. I have checked the saved files, and it wasn't because of multi-unit selection, but as others suggested herein, perhaps the demo has a bug, because there were actually a couple of different units, that simply, turn after turn, either refused to stay in a building I told them to go to, or didn't go into at all but camped out close by instead. Just bizarre. Now all that said though, this is a behaviour that developed later in the game, and they were not under any combat duress at that point; all the fighting had progressed to the east of the town. In the beginning, things were working as expected, and that's why I wonder if it may be something to do with saving files and coming back to them at later times.

I will say that it is a really good and challenging scenario, perhaps too much for a novice even. Fortunately, there are some really good, YouTube how-to videos these days, and they gave me some really good instruction-prep and tips ahead of time.

[RMM]

9 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

I remember playing that scenario in the demo.  I didn't really know what I was doing at the time so may have missed it, but I don't recall the behaviour described with the infantry. 

As far as I can remember my infantry gun didn't get into the action either, but I thought at the time that was due to lack of targets.  Did your arc cover the target both in angles and distance?

Unless someone says otherwise I don't think you can grind the enemy infantry under your tracks - I try to keep a healthy distance anyway if I can.

You may be able to recover the MG if your original crew are wounded.  Place the ammo carriers (or another infantry unit) 'on top' of the wounded crew and they should in a short while perform medic / buddy aid action, part of which is recovery of weapons / ammo.  No guarantees though, and I haven't tried it with ammo carrier units but I assume it's the same as for other infantry units.

As for buying the game, I would totally recommend it.

 

Yeh, the arc did cover the edge of the orchards in front of it (with good reason!), which is where the Brit. infantry eventually emerged from to kill them, so who knows. I think the points that have been made here about the out of date engine on the demos may well be a factor, and as I mentioned to Sgt. Joch, the uncommanded movements didn't happen until towards the end; although the first signs of it cost me some people when a couple of units just left their building, defensive positions and promptly got cut down in the open!

I am going to have to try to see if the ammo bearers can pickup the lost MG in a later scenario for sure! Thinking in terms of real life, it would seem proper and true-to-life, even instinctual for them to take over from the lost crew that they served.

Finding the infantry under my tracks was, ironically by accident. The AFV was moving in Hunt mode but apparently didn't see them until it was, literally right on top of them! I subsequently back it up, and they did the needful, but it's another point of curiosity what would happen if one were to just leave it there! I assume the infantry would eventually assault the AFV?

[RMM]

Well thanks for the tips and suggestions all. It's been good to hear that this is not an expected game feature or bug, in fact quite the opposite. I'm looking forward to going ahead with the purchase - one can put the same license on a desktop and laptop though, right? I'm a pilot, so constantly on the road and need it on two machines, because I would much rather use the Desktop when at home.

As an unreformed and unrepentant, ASL grognard, it's been interesting to find out about this some 20yrs after it was originally developed to be the eASL we all pined so much for! Why I never came across it before when I would do the occasional Google search for eASL or some such to see if anything (worthwhile!) had come along, I have no idea. I do love how the WeGo blends the turn-based process, allowing one to think with the real time action that does away with the clunky turn and/or move process of dedicated turn-based systems!

[RMM]

56 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

I bought CMBN first ~5 years ago.  And still haven't played all of it, there's just so much if you get the big bundle.  Part of that is that I now have all the games except Afghanistan, so bounce between them.  You have hundreds of hours of epic battles -- jump in.  Learning curve just takes a little time; watch gameplay & tips videos from youtube, you'll be a pro very quickly.  And you'll still lose battles sometimes, that's what makes these games such an enduring challenge.

Yeh, I watched those YouTube videos and actually found them immensely more helpful then the manual! I do hope that the new CM2 is going to go back and upgrade the CM1 North Africa, etc. games as well as bring out early war and other theatres of Ops? Seems like there's, currently a focus on more modern ops.

Edited September 18, 2020 by RMM

[RMM]

9 hours ago, CHEqTRO said:

It could be that those are all old bugs that havent been corrected for the demo for as far as I am aware Battlefront doesnt update them.

Infact, just before I bought Battle for Normandy i also downloaded the demo, and it was still using the v1 (or v2, dont really remember) version of the game engine ( When i bought it, v3 had just been released).

There is an easy way to see if this is still the case. Do the sound contact icons have an interrogation sign or do they show an infantryman or tank silhouette?? If the former, the demo is still running an ancient version of the game engine

That brings up a question - did you remove the demo before installing the actual game, since they're not the same version? Just wondering if installing over the demo could cause a conflict?

[CHEqTRO]

36 minutes ago, RMM said:

That brings up a question - did you remove the demo before installing the actual game, since they're not the same version? Just wondering if installing over the demo could cause a conflict?

I did delete the demo before installing the full game. Nevertheless, I am 99% sure that it would not provoke any sort of conflict, as if I remember correctly, the save files are different and the demo doesnt have to share any code with the full game. Still, if you are sure that you are going to buy the game, i would unistall the demo, just in case that 1% of doubt becomes a reality.

 

Also, talking about Youtube Videos. I cannot recommend enough the series that General Airmchair did back in the day about tactics in CM games. Its production quality its outstanding, and they are, even after 9 years, the best tactics videos about CM in youtube, atleast in my opinion. Also they are one of the reasons which convinced me to finally spend those 60 euros for the game back in the day.

Here you have the first of the six videos he made: 

 

[RMM]

Fantastic CHEqTRO. I'll check 'em out! Thanks 

[John1966]

1 hour ago, RMM said:

I assume the infantry would eventually assault the AFV?

In CM an "AFV overrun" is best described as "losing an AFV to hand grenades".

[Bozowans]

1 hour ago, RMM said:

Finding the infantry under my tracks was, ironically by accident. The AFV was moving in Hunt mode but apparently didn't see them until it was, literally right on top of them! I subsequently back it up, and they did the needful, but it's another point of curiosity what would happen if one were to just leave it there! I assume the infantry would eventually assault the AFV?

Yeah, infantry that are very close to enemy vehicles will throw grenades (or satchel charges if they have them) in order to simulate a close assault (like infantry throwing grenades down open hatches or whatever). It can be risky to do close assaults with grenades though, and sometimes it doesn't always work. You might need a lot of guys surrounding the tank. If I was the tank though, I certainly wouldn't want to stick around even if it was just one guy!

Tanks can shoot at infantry that are right next to them, but there is a very long delay. One of the limitations of the game engine is that it does not take gun barrel elevation into account when acquiring targets, so tanks can shoot at things even when they would realistically not be able to elevate/depress the gun barrel enough to reach them, like if infantry were swarming around the base of the tank, or if there were infantry in the upper floors of a building right next to the tank. The game compensates for that by making it take very long to acquire the target at very close range. The tank will sit there and stare at the infantry (could be 30 seconds or a minute or even longer) before it's allowed to fire, giving the infantry time to throw grenades.

Unfortunately tanks can't run over infantry and you can't ram enemy vehicles either. Sometimes that mechanic leads to some silly things, like if a friendly and enemy tank somehow manage to drive up right next to each other without getting destroyed in the process, they will just sit there and stare at each other with their gun barrels pressed against each other like some kinda standoff until one backs away. That almost never happens in the game though so it doesn't really matter. 

[RMM]

5 hours ago, John1966 said:

In CM an "AFV overrun" is best described as "losing an AFV to hand grenades".

[RMM]

5 hours ago, Bozowans said:

Yeah, infantry that are very close to enemy vehicles will throw grenades (or satchel charges if they have them) in order to simulate a close assault (like infantry throwing grenades down open hatches or whatever). It can be risky to do close assaults with grenades though, and sometimes it doesn't always work. You might need a lot of guys surrounding the tank. If I was the tank though, I certainly wouldn't want to stick around even if it was just one guy!

Tanks can shoot at infantry that are right next to them, but there is a very long delay. One of the limitations of the game engine is that it does not take gun barrel elevation into account when acquiring targets, so tanks can shoot at things even when they would realistically not be able to elevate/depress the gun barrel enough to reach them, like if infantry were swarming around the base of the tank, or if there were infantry in the upper floors of a building right next to the tank. The game compensates for that by making it take very long to acquire the target at very close range. The tank will sit there and stare at the infantry (could be 30 seconds or a minute or even longer) before it's allowed to fire, giving the infantry time to throw grenades.

Unfortunately tanks can't run over infantry and you can't ram enemy vehicles either. Sometimes that mechanic leads to some silly things, like if a friendly and enemy tank somehow manage to drive up right next to each other without getting destroyed in the process, they will just sit there and stare at each other with their gun barrels pressed against each other like some kinda standoff until one backs away. That almost never happens in the game though so it doesn't really matter. 

That's quite the amusing image!

[John1966]

It's easy to forget just how vulnerable tanks are to infantry at close quarters.

In a night time scenario I had a Sherman closing on a Panzer IV but in the dark, they couldn't see each other. They were at either end of a road and the conditions were wet so leaving the road was likely to result in bogging. It was going to be who saw the other first. If the Sherman was the one moving I surmised the Panzer IV would get the first shot in as they were facing each other.

So I ruthlessly got an infantry squad to charge the Panzer IV. The idea being that it would rotate it's turret to blow them away giving the Sherman a chance to get a couple of shots in as it charged down the road.

Didn't work quite as anticipated because the infantry who charged the Panzer IV lobbed a couple of grenades and the German crew bailed before it fired a shot.

That sort of changed how I viewed infantry vs tanks. I always try to get them close and they're often very efficient at dispatching tanks. Stopped me thinking about nothing but my AT assets. Recently sent a couple of squads after a Panther in urban terrain with similar results. Not an AT weapon in sight.

So if the AFV overrun was available in CM, I doubt it'd ever get used that much.

[RMM]

35 minutes ago, John1966 said:

It's easy to forget just how vulnerable tanks are to infantry at close quarters.

In a night time scenario I had a Sherman closing on a Panzer IV but in the dark, they couldn't see each other. They were at either end of a road and the conditions were wet so leaving the road was likely to result in bogging. It was going to be who saw the other first. If the Sherman was the one moving I surmised the Panzer IV would get the first shot in as they were facing each other.

So I ruthlessly got an infantry squad to charge the Panzer IV. The idea being that it would rotate it's turret to blow them away giving the Sherman a chance to get a couple of shots in as it charged down the road.

Didn't work quite as anticipated because the infantry who charged the Panzer IV lobbed a couple of grenades and the German crew bailed before it fired a shot.

That sort of changed how I viewed infantry vs tanks. I always try to get them close and they're often very efficient at dispatching tanks. Stopped me thinking about nothing but my AT assets. Recently sent a couple of squads after a Panther in urban terrain with similar results. Not an AT weapon in sight.

So if the AFV overrun was available in CM, I doubt it'd ever get used that much.

That's some odd observations. Granted, later in the war, the Germans in particular had some potent anti-tank grenades, but even they took some nerves of steel, because you had to get right up against the vehicle to place them! For much of the war, there was very little infantry had against heavy armour like a Panther. Consequently, traditionally, one of the easiest ways for a tank to quell dug in infantry was to literally drive over the entrenchments and then pivot on their tracks, which would bury the troops alive. It was a terrifyingly effective tactic. In addition, accurately throwing an anti-tank, let alone and anti-personnel grenade at a moving AFV was an intimidating prospect to say the least, and many infantry would balk at the thought. If the AFV were immobilized, that was a much different prospect; otherwise, this seems an oddly not-true-to-life gameplay.

[Vacillator]

55 minutes ago, RMM said:

Granted, later in the war, the Germans in particular had some potent anti-tank grenades

The effectiveness of Panzerschreks, Panzerfausts, PIATs and Bazookas gives me pause for thought in any of these situations.  It's all too easy to lose your armour assets to a couple of squaddies with one of these weapons.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Vacilllator

[RMM]

8 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

The effectiveness of Panzerschreks, Panzerfausts, PIATs and Bazookas gives me pause for thought in any of these situations.  It's all too easy to lose your armour assets to a couple of squaddies with one of these weapons.

Oh absolutely, once those weapons began to appear on the battlefield, the whole dynamic began to dramatically shift, but the first of those didn't appear until late '43 with the German PF and American Bazooka. Even then, it wasn't until Spring/Summer of '44 that infantry began to be a hitherto much greater threat to armour.  

[Vacillator]

So right in timescale for BN, as I have found to my cost in a lot of scenarios and have likewise benefitted from in others.  My behaviour has been suitably modified.