How to deafeat, a Russian BTG. US perspective. IRL.

[Armorgunner]

Very interesting to read. An analysis of how the Russians used, their Battalion Tactical Groups in the Ukraine. And how to deafeat them, from the US perspective. Their weaknesses, and their strengths.

https://www.benning.army.mil/Armor/eARMOR/content/issues/2017/Spring/2Fiore17.pdf

 

Could be of interest for scenario designers. And even for QB

Edited July 20, 2020 by Armorgunner

[Bufo]

Hmm this link doesn't work for me.

[Armorgunner]

2Fiore17.pdf No it doesn´t. Not in Edge, but works in Chrome. But this pdf  should, I hope 

Edit: This works in Edge, but not in Chrome. STRANGE! Read it. Its very informative, and easy to read. And gives a good picture. How Russia used their, at times. Numerous BTG´s in eastern Ukraine. 

 

Otherwise, just google this: Defeating the Russian Battalion Tactical Group

Edited July 21, 2020 by Armorgunner

[Vergeltungswaffe]

OP works in Firefox.

[ikalugin]

The irony is that BTGs were used as a product of Donbas specific limitations, not because they are the standard approach.
Which together with the US tactical bias now leads to US preparing to fight the wrong threat (BTGs vs large scale action, regiment and above).

[Sgt Joch]

Depends. Russia would likely use larger units in the event of an all out war with the USA, but the chances of that happening in the next 20 years is basically nil.

What you are more likely to see in the next 10-20 years, would be the same kind of low intensity warfare you saw in Ukraine, either in Eastern Europe or Central Asia. The military involvement of US/NATO forces, if any, would probably be limited to training local forces and providing advisors and special forces unit. So yes, trying to figure out now the best way to defeat a Russian Battalion Tactical Group operating independently makes sense.

 

Grau in the “Russian way of war” also views the BTG as the basic tactical unit employed by the Russians (see page 37):

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Hot Spots/Documents/Russia/2017-07-The-Russian-Way-of-War-Grau-Bartles.pdf

Edited August 28, 2020 by Sgt Joch

[ikalugin]

I am familiar with the book, I just happen to disagree with it on this point based on how the exercises happen. Nor do I believe in the war between Russia and US staying very limited, I think it would become either a regional or large scale war.

As to the article - the author asks how a brigade would be fighting a reinforced battalion and in general offers poor and confused insight.

Edited September 11, 2020 by ikalugin

[Armorgunner]

7 hours ago, ikalugin said:

As to the article - the author asks how a brigade would be fighting a reinforced battalion and in general offers poor and confused insight.

It´s mainly, a matter of doctrine (and availability) I think. US, use their BCT´s. In the same manner, Russia use their BTG´s. The BCT´s, is the main fighting elements, of a US division. But Russia, only uses one BTG. From each division, or brigade in Ukraine. And Russia use, a lot more proxy forces.

The main difference is: Russia use their best/proffesional soldiers, from the Brigade/Division, in their BTG. In Ukraine, at least.

In a US Division, all soldiers are proffesional. So the US, can use all their BCT everywhere, at Anytime!

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Armorgunner

[MikeyD]

Quote

Although some BTG systems are technologically superior to the corresponding U.S. equipment...

I'm reminded of a comment out of Ukraine that I read about the troops not much liking American night vision equipment (possibly donated from outdated warfighting stocks). They much preferred the night vision devices got from Belarus, probably from the company Yukon.

[Haiduk]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:46 PM, Armorgunner said:

 Russia use their best/proffesional soldiers, from the Brigade/Division, in their BTG. In Ukraine, at least.

I would say not the best. Probably "more capable" than other mass of their contractors. But I don't know how their command made these lists. Even their VDV units didn't show any "owerhelming warfare" like their films draw. What I know by stories of soldiers, in 2014-2015 Russians were much better in Special Forces, artillery/MLRS and EW. Their ground forces, VDV, marines in the case of properly esteblished defense and strong resistance in many retreated, because of their motivation was not so large. For example, after UKR troops repelled fierce assault of Luhansk airport (as minimum two T-90A platoons participated) and withdrew in the night, Russian forces after this about two days shelled empty airport with artillery, including 240 mm mortars 2S4, but didn't dare to advance again.

On 9/11/2020 at 9:59 PM, MikeyD said:

I'm reminded of a comment out of Ukraine that I read about the troops not much liking American night vision equipment (possibly donated from outdated warfighting stocks). They much preferred the night vision devices got from Belarus, probably from the company Yukon.

Probably this about older AN/PWS-7 and old thermal cameras, which civil volunteers supplied to army in the first year of war. Currently AN/PWS-14 in use, which now US officially supplies and I didn't hear negative about its. In the segment of portable thermal cameras, indeed Belarusian devices are very popular to this days, but Pulsar, not Yukon (though their devices also in use). Since 2016-2017 MoD orders Ukraininan TVT Archer devices (used FLIR III gen) - mostly thermal sights for rifles and machineguns. 

[Armorgunner]

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

I would say not the best. Probably "more capable" than other mass of their contractors.

Oh, I did not say. The best!! I said, "their" best! Quite a difference! And that mean, it was the Brigade/Divisions best men. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Armorgunner

[Haiduk]

49 minutes ago, Armorgunner said:

I said, "their" best!

I said about this too - about troopers of some brigade. Looks like that lists of personnel for "vacations" were preparing randomly - not only best or experienced. Some BTGs were combined, established from all brigade's batallions, some were established on the base of one regular battalion as it should be. Sometime like in case of BTG of 76th airborne division, personnel was combimed from one regiment, but their vehicles belonged to other.  

[ikalugin]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:46 PM, Armorgunner said:

It´s mainly, a matter of doctrine (and availability) I think. US, use their BCT´s. In the same manner, Russia use their BTG´s. The BCT´s, is the main fighting elements, of a US division. But Russia, only uses one BTG. From each division, or brigade in Ukraine. And Russia use, a lot more proxy forces.

The main difference is: Russia use their best/proffesional soldiers, from the Brigade/Division, in their BTG. In Ukraine, at least.

In a US Division, all soldiers are proffesional. So the US, can use all their BCT everywhere, at Anytime!

 

So the problem is that the bulk of current combat forces are made out of proffesional servicemen.
"Small elite core" has been an obsolete concept, particuarly after the 2012 shift in the reform and the return to regional/large scale war focus (I use the official doctrinal terms intentionally).

BTGs are just fetishised tactical units because Western military thinkers suddenly found out that Russian (and Soviet before then) military actually has a lot of thought going into flexible, mission orientated battalion level task forces. Not that this is a new thing, just new to the people who suddenly realised in 2014 that Russian military is relevant and needs study.

Edited September 21, 2020 by ikalugin

[ikalugin]

On 9/14/2020 at 8:30 PM, Haiduk said:

I said about this too - about troopers of some brigade. Looks like that lists of personnel for "vacations" were preparing randomly - not only best or experienced. Some BTGs were combined, established from all brigade's batallions, some were established on the base of one regular battalion as it should be. Sometime like in case of BTG of 76th airborne division, personnel was combimed from one regiment, but their vehicles belonged to other.  

A product of hasty ad-hoc organisation for a mission they were not prepared for, with the search for the volonteers and the like.

It is amusing however how this is being projected onto an open high activity war.