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butler69

What the actual hell is this game?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2020 at 12:39 PM, agusto said:

MOUT operations in CMx2 titles have always been pretty bloody if not executed without exceptional care. I can not make a statement regarding your specific situation, but what i ve observed in the couple of years playing CMx2 is that clearing a building occupied by hostile forces is

  1. Best avoided if possible
  2. If avoiding clearing the building is impossible, destroy the building or its occupants using heavy fire power (tanks, aircraft artillery, what ever you' ve got).
  3. If destroying the building or it's occupants using heavy fire power is not possible, prepare it for infantry clearing by first spending a couple of turns suppressing it's occupants using at least a 3:1 force ratio and the target or target light command. RPGs and the like are wonderful tools for convincing an enemy in a building to leave it.
  4. After preparing the building for assault, keep suppressing it with a target-light command and a 2:1 force ratio an send a 1:1 force ratio troop into the building, carefully. Use the pause command and suppress each room with the assault element using target-briefly for at least 10 seconds before entering (this also leads to some grenade throwing, etc). If possible, send the assault element into the building using demo charges by blowing in a wall that has no windows and from the top most floor possible (because hand grenades work best if thrown from an upper to a lower floor). If heavy resistance is encountered in a room, retreat and try to destroy or at least suppress the enemy using your over-watch element from the outside.

Using above listed steps, MOUT against an inferior force as the Syrians in CMSF2 can usually be done relative casualty free. Fighting an equal enemy such as the Russians in CMBS, on the other hand, will always cause you some losses, there is no way around it. Just accept it and keep pushing forward towards your mission objectives.

Seriously. It's important to keep in mind that considerable firepower has been placed down in the hands of the infantry now, and this is much different from the platoons of 1945 maybe having a few light machine guns a rifle grenade launcher and a sharp stick they all share. Every man in today's infantry squad is a potential bullet hose, and he's backed up by liberal allotments of machine guns, grenade launchers, and rocket launchers all of which used to be much more rare or restricted to higher levels. 

This also means that modern infantry squads have relatively short periods they can remain engaged for, since they burn ammunition so fast. That's why the US Army had to make the Stryker. The Humvee just wasn't tough enough to be right up front with the infantry portering all of their ammunition and supplies, it's too vulnerable and the armored versions suffer from chronic maintenance problems due to an overtaxed drivetrain. This is part of the reason the BMP is still so widespread among Eastern Bloc style armories. 

Edited by SimpleSimon

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I'm the guy who cleaned up the CMSF1 scenario 'House Cleaning' for CMSF2 and I've never won against the AI in that scenario. The trick to MOUT is suppression of the enemy and overwhelming firepower. But the compound walls and modular layout of the large building makes both difficult. When your squad attacks, the enemy often has local fire superiority because your adjacent units and vehicles have LOS blocked by perimeter walls or building facades while your exposed unit is being fired on from multiple directions.

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Seems like in open terrain US forces tend to dominate. In built up or urban areas it gets bloody for both side. Probably why in real life armies try to avoid built up/urban areas if possible. 

Keep in mind insides of buildings are devoid of inner rooms,  furniture, non-combatants and other obstructions so it's easily conceivable that 1 person with an AK could take out a large number of people.

A while back a well trained SWAT team in Oakland clearing a house suffered multiple casualties at the hand of a single person armed with a SKS who was hiding in a closet. At close quarters like inside of building body armor provides little or no protection from modern high velocity bullets fired from assault rifles. Firing through walls inside of buildings can also kill or suppress a large number of people.

As mentioned blowing holes in wall before entering is the best way to go if possible.

 

Edited by db_zero

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24 minutes ago, db_zero said:

Keep in mind insides of buildings are devoid of inner rooms,  furniture, non-combatants and other obstructions so it's easily conceivable that 1 person with an AK could take out a large number of people.

CM does abstract obstructions like furniture inside of buildings. It’s all part of the cover value being in a particular type of house provides. 
 

25 minutes ago, db_zero said:

At close quarters like inside of building body armor provides little or no protection from modern high velocity bullets fired from assault rifles.

Hard plates rated for it will stop 5.56, 7.62, and .30-06 at point blank range. Soft body armor such as Kevlar will not.

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7 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

CM does abstract obstructions like furniture inside of buildings. It’s all part of the cover value being in a particular type of house provides. 
 

Hard plates rated for it will stop 5.56, 7.62, and .30-06 at point blank range. Soft body armor such as Kevlar will not.

ESAPI plates will stop a 7.62 AP round no problem, after two or three hits it cracks and becomes vulnerable

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I just did a deep dive into CMSF2's "House Cleaning". Yeah, that hospital complex is a tough nut.

I found that they Syrians were able to ambush the US, inflicting many casualties. So, I dug deeper. What I found, surprised me.

You know those hanging skeleton models in medical places? Well, some Syrians had skeleton suits and were imitating them. That worked. In one case, as the US team entered the morgue, several drawers popped open and out sprang some full-auto AK-firing Syrians. I won't even mention the fiasco in the emergency ward. Oh, the operating theater? Well, the US expected that the "patient" was a Syrian fighter. Sure enough, he had a machine gun under the green sheets. What caught my guys out, though, was that every "doctor" and "nurse" were also Syrian fighters. These were just the ones that stood out. The usual techniques of hiding behind furniture, poking shooting holes in walls, etc., were there as well.

;)

My point? A lot is abstracted. Room-clearing is deadly work. Explosives and suppression...and smoke, are the only way to make it work. And you'll still take casualties. But it still sucks.

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I fired up House Cleaning for the first time in a long time and had a merry time getting shot up. You get lazy playing 'whack-a-mole' scenarios where you're guaranteed to win, its a bit unnerving facing an enemy whose capable of defending himself! ^_^

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I just tried the House Cleaning scenario again as well. I played it way back years ago and got slaughtered. I still remember it from the Shock Force 1 days. The map is too small, you get little room to maneuver, and you're within RPG range right from the deployment zone, and it sucks only getting one .50 cal machine gun Stryker.

I played it for a few minutes, took a bunch of casualties right away and saw a very lucky RPG hit take out the .50 cal gun on the Stryker from all the way across the map, all within the first few minutes. :angry: So I restarted and then tried to play it much more slowly and carefully. It took me a while but I ended up really surprising myself and got a total victory, clearing the entire hospital with only 2 dead and 5 wounded. So it IS possible to beat it with pretty minimal loss.

I beat it by concentrating almost my entire force on the right side of the map, trying to focus on taking the hospital in smaller pieces. I had the 40mm Strykers blow some holes in the boundary wall so more of my guys could shoot into the compound, and then had the infantry advance in short bounds just a little bit at a time across the open ground. There was a pretty fierce firefight and all 7 of my losses were taken on the advance to the hospital. Miraculously I took zero during the final assault and room clearing process.

Your Strykers can drive right up to the boundary walls and shoot over without really exposing themselves at all, which is very helpful. To the enemy they look like this:

vGVYY7j.png

 

After about 20-30 minutes I had completely cleared the entire right side (east side) of the hospital all the way to the back of the map. The left side (west) was mostly untouched and still filled with enemies. Once it got quiet again, I had my infantry rearm and regroup themselves with the Strykers and then mass together for the final assault on the other side. The main hospital building is five stories tall, so I tried putting one full squad of infantry on each floor at the corner nearest my side of the map, then had them rush over to the enemy side all at the same time. 

Nearly my entire force was concentrated all on one building tile. Having five full US infantry squads all shooting at the same time from the same building section completely overwhelmed the opposition on the other side. Then I had the five squads (about 40 guys) start moving down the length of the main hospital building on the enemy side, stopping at each building section along the way so they could area fire into the next one for a while before storming into that section en masse. It doesn't really seem to matter what floor you're on when there are enemies in the adjacent building section. I saw guys on the fourth floor shooting down at guys on the first floor for example. So each enemy squad hiding in the back areas of the hospital had 40 guys all come charging into view all at once, guns blazing on floors above them and below. It was like a big wall of death moving down the length of the hospital. 24 enemy troops got wiped out in a couple of minutes. After a few more minutes of mopping up it was over. :D 49 enemy dead, 59 wounded, 17 captured.

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