Aquila-SmartWargames Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) That a tank in a ditch in front of another one might get later fully aquired but might catch a shot by accident doesn´t seem that unreasonable. 2 hours ago, c3k said: No. If the Panther is selected (not sure from the video or the difficulty level) any spotted icon like that is what that unit is aware of but does not have positive confirmation. The OP's video does not make it clear. But, regardless, you cannot make the statement that "it is clearly invisible to the gunner at this point". I second that. While it a) can stand for a contact report that was received from contact sharing it b) also can stand for "I see an enemy tank but don´t have it fully identified and/or are not ready to engage it yet" There is sometimes no way to distinguish if a contact report is coming from a) or b) and can be of mixed sources but the very strong color points more towards a very strong b) (This limitation is also why I think why we see this new icon blinking in CMFI RtV.) Doesn´t mean that I want to justify this case here. With the little information I have no real opinion on it. However labeling the tank invisible is wrong. Edited July 9, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said: I second that. While it a) can stand for a contact report that was received from contact sharing it b) also can stand for "I see an enemy tank but don´t have it fully identified and/or are not ready to engage it yet" There is sometimes no way to distinguish if a contact report is coming from a/b or even mixed but the very strong color points more towards b) (This limitation is also my bet why we see this new icon blinking in CMFI RtV some perceive as a bug) Doesn´t mean that I want to justify this case here, with the little information I have no real opinion on it. However labeling the tank invisible is wrong. Well said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 I'd prefer to see a saved game file but the video could also be showing him firing at the spotted tank and hitting the unspotted one. The same way you can take out a tank with area fire sometimes. To that point, when you watch the video what do you see right after the unspotted tank is hit? The round also hits the spotted tank. As others have said there isn't enough here to tell for sure what is happening. My guess would be that he hit the unspotted tank while firing at the spotted tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37mm Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 A tank in a ditch (though not entirely spotted) is hit by accident whilst another (far more visible) tank, on a road, is engaged? Is this even an issue? It seems like something we'd all agree could happen... that CM models such things (and always remembering we are looking at abstractions) seems to be something we should celibrate... no? Notice the first, weakened, shot hits the visible tanks hull (presumably the result of a shot aimed slightly low) but the second, deadly, shot hits the turret (presumably the result of a shot aimed slightly high & therefore bypassing the obstructive tank). If we drop the assumption that every tank round fired in a CM battlefield takes placed under ideal optical conditions (and instead imagine foilage, dust, smoke, silhouettes, shadows, microterrain undulations... as well as sweat, panic & fear) then there's no issue with this incident. Good job BFC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Bufo said: I really don't get why is this so hard to understand. Maybe a sketch for visualization would help I get it from a game point of view, but not from a realism point of view. What I don't get is whether you agree with me or not? You seemed to agree, but now you disagree? But... never mind. It's just one of a very long list of LOS issues in the game. (To me, anyway). Still a great game, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Bufo said: There are no white balls. Yeah...But waiting for them kept you focussed on the balls. In a classroom situation, one would offer a reward for the right count. But that seemed to obvious for our forum situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 13 hours ago, mjkerner said: Dang, 12 passes the first time I tried the test, 14 the second. Did you see the gorilla in your first try? I have seen this in a few live presentations now, and never did anybody (including me) not knowing the experiment note the gorillas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 15 hours ago, Bufo said: That's not a spotted icon. Its the "somebody told me around here should be a tank but I cannot see it" icon. It is clearly invisible to the gunner at this point. 8 hours ago, c3k said: No. If the Panther is selected (not sure from the video or the difficulty level) any spotted icon like that is what that unit is aware of but does not have positive confirmation. The OP's video does not make it clear. But, regardless, you cannot make the statement that "it is clearly invisible to the gunner at this point". It could be either one, but I don't see the problem either way. The Panther had ID'd the rear tank, but that doesn't mean it had a clear view of the whole thing, just enough of it to ID it, like maybe the sillhouette of the left side of the turret, I dunno. It's not at all far fetched that there could be a tank in front of it which couldn't be seen, presumably in front of a part of it that wasn't seen by the Panther. Especially since both the T34s were in trees - and brush... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat - was IanL Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 On 7/9/2020 at 2:11 AM, StieliAlpha said: Did you see the gorilla in your first try? I have seen this in a few live presentations now, and never did anybody (including me) not knowing the experiment note the gorillas. LOL - I did love the idea of your video. Sadly the point was lost on me since I saw 14 passes by the white shirted players and the guy in the gorilla costume was a shock when he showed up. I probably missed the one pass when the gorilla appeared. The main point is spot on though. This is the type of thing the game is trying to simulate. Our problem is that we have god like view of the battlefield so we see all that everyone can see and get upset if our pixel troop doesn't see things that we see that are so obvious to us. Examples like @StieliAlpha's basket ball passing video and things we experience in real life are what the game is trying to simulate. I am sure we have all experienced trying to direct a friend or family member to see that cool car down the street or the different coloured cow across the field. How many times have you heard yourself say "its right there in front of you" pointing in the direction. Our brains construct the illusion that we see everything all the time, at least in front of us, but we really don't. High stress situations cause us to focus on the things we do see and exclude more of the rest of the world. This is what the game is simulating. It does it quite well actually. In this example the gunner was aiming on one tank. Why on earth would you expect him to have high situational awareness of other stuff going on? In fact humans would not. In fact the tank commander would prefer the gunner focus on the tank he wants him to kill. This is just how humans work. There are limitations in the spotting caused by resource constraints for example LOS through trees or the problem of close range spotting that can cause some odd situations because of the spotting time cycle. But stuff like this example is not one of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, IanL said:This is just how humans work. Thanks, @IanL. That’s just what I meant. There is much more to “seeing things” than optics. Perhaps, I should have mentioned as an example the number of traffic signs, which we do not see because we are busy racing down a high way. Or the number of times I am not seeing the car keys right there on the table, because my mind is already going through the shopping list. Or you name it.... CM is a very detailed simulation. But one can simulate only so much. Otherwise the simulation would be reality, which would create an interesting new problem. Especially the soft factors are difficult to simulate. How do you simulate that the gunner is distracted for a split second, because he “sh.ts his pants” in face of the Panthers’s 75mm? In less detailed (board) games this is handled as pure luck. One may have overwhelming odds and a perfect line of sight, but with a roll of 6 six on the Morale Effects table, the shot goes down the drain (or elsewhere). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat - was IanL Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said: That’s just what I meant. There is much more to “seeing things” than optics. Yep. Couple that with the way our brain has convinced us that it is aware of all things all the time make it very hard for people to accept the reality that humans miss things. As we witness here on these board everyday. The fact that these things happen is a testament to how great this game is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 StieliAlpha, yup, saw the elephant first time. Figured, meh, stupid college students. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) On 7/13/2020 at 2:20 PM, IanL said: The main point is spot on though. This is the type of thing the game is trying to simulate. Problem is that is another issue. In the example that started this topic there is something blocking the line of sight to the target that is invisible. Imagine the gorilla video like the gorilla would actually jump in front of the ball. It would be impossible to not notice the gorilla that time. On 7/13/2020 at 2:20 PM, IanL said: In this example the gunner was aiming on one tank. Yes, and when he hit the fire button then the shell hit something that was in front of the target. Ooops, didnt see that thing that is actually blocking my sight, sorry Hank. Edited July 14, 2020 by Bufo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37mm Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Bufo said: Problem is that is another issue. In the example that started this topic there is something blocking the line of sight to the target that is invisible. Imagine the gorilla video like the gorilla would actually jump in front of the ball. It would be impossible to not notice the gorilla that time. Yes, and when he hit the fire button then the shell hit something that was in front of the target. Ooops, didnt see that thing that is actually blocking my sight, sorry Hank. The intervening tank is in a ditch... the first shot penetrates this "suspected tank" (its not truly invisible as there is an icon there) & then hits the visible tank in the hull (presumably the result of a shot aimed low). The second shot hits the visible tank in the turret (presumably the result of a shot aimed high). The tank in the ditch has a lower profile & is more easily concealed by foilage, dust etc...despite this concealment the tank in the ditch has no real cover from the low first shot. There is absolutely no issue with this sequence of events. Edited July 14, 2020 by 37mm 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 Here are two pics from the end review, in case someone is interested. https://photos.app.goo.gl/QxEf6KBm1s9J5nN39 P.S. One of the better H2H scenarios I've played, btw. "Baranovichi". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, Sven said: Here are two pics from the end review, in case someone is interested. Please take a zoomed in screenshot from the viewpoint of your tank that made the shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Bufo said: Please take a zoomed in screenshot from the viewpoint of your tank that made the shot. That's too late, I'm afraid. I don't have that save file anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37mm Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 20 hours ago, Sven said: That's too late, I'm afraid. I don't have that save file anymore. To be fair, looking at the pictures, there was probably also screwy timing going on... the suspected tank clearly had been in a ditch but must have risen out of it, perhaps just a few seconds before it then got hit (accidentally). I definately don't see any issue here (quite the reverse, this is a great example of 'the fog of war' being simulated by CM) but I will say the suspected location icons are perhaps a little subtle to understand sometimes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, 37mm said: To be fair, looking at the pictures, there was probably also screwy timing going on... the suspected tank clearly had been in a ditch but must have risen out of it, perhaps just a few seconds before it then got hit (accidentally). I definately don't see any issue here (quite the reverse, this is a great example of 'the fog of war' being simulated by CM) but I will say the suspected location icons are perhaps a little subtle to understand sometimes. Could be. Anyway, thanks everyone for input. Maybe it wasn't as invisible as it first appeared. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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