T-34/85 Beutepanzer

[John Kettler]

In a thread discussing equipment realism in the indie film "The Eastern Front", one of my CoC colleagues made a snarky comment about how the Germans shouldn't have been using T-34/85s then. This intrigued me, so I went looking, and it turns out the Germans did use captured T-34/85s and not only used them but used them successfully in Operation Greif type ops. This cries out for at least a Mark Felton doc but a book would be grand, too, since there are apparently veterans' accounts.

http://www.beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/t-34/t-34-85/t-34_85_jaguar.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bud Backer]

Yes, like all sides the Germans used captured equipment. I have read accounts where there was some trepidation about being misidentified as the enemy in the heat of battle, and how some put enormous German crosses on them for easier identification. The 6th picture in the article you linked shows some of that, with an oversized cross, as well as extra ones that would ever appear on a German tank.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Bud Backer

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

some trepidation about being misidentified as the enemy in the heat of battle, and how some put enormous German crosses on them for easier identification

Intriguingly, the pics show Germans in Soviet uniforms...

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

One of the CMFB campaigns is featuring a German Sherman Beutepanzer.

[John Kettler]

Erwin,

As I indicated in the OP, and the article clearly stated, those men were from a unit intended to do what Skorzeny's Panzer Brigade 150 was supposed to do during the Battle of the Bulge, but he was so effectively ignored or even blocked by units holding American equipment, his entire real US armored force amounted to two M8 armored cars. Also, he had very few English speakers, often not good, either, in the Einheit Steilau where 150 fake GIs were. The Eastern Front unit was called Jaguar and operated not only captured T-34/85s but T-34/76s,  even a IS-2! From what I can tell, Jaguar tanks and crews were intended to be able to pass unnonoticed as Soviet, which is why the men wore tankisti attire. Since the unit was composed of  Germans fluent in Russian, Hiwis and Hungarians, Jaguar had not just vast advantages in having real tanks and the right kinds, but also men with the enemy language fluency Skorzeny's Einheit Steilau couldn't begin to match. Unlike Operation Greif, Jaguar ops were entirely successful and cover was never blown. Wish I knew more.

https://panzerworld.com/panzer-brigade-150

Regards,

John Kettler
 

Edited June 24, 2020 by John Kettler

[Erwin]

Skorzeny used the Brandenburgers who supposedly were fluent in English - but I guess not enuff of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburgers

Edited June 24, 2020 by Erwin

[Bulletpoint]

19 hours ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said:

One of the CMFB campaigns is featuring a German Sherman Beutepanzer.

Which campaign is that?

Edited June 25, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Which campaign is that?

Courage Conquers, 1st mission. 

First encounter at 1:46:00, Sherman vs Sherman at 2:35:19

Really liked the idea.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[StieliAlpha]

@kohlenklau once created a T34/76 „Beutepanzer“ for his Malta-Mod, I believe it was for CMFI, to be used in his Malta Campaign.

[John Kettler]

On 6/26/2020 at 4:21 AM, StieliAlpha said:

@kohlenklau once created a T34/76 „Beutepanzer“ for his Malta-Mod, I believe it was for CMFI, to be used in his Malta Campaign.

He sure did. Unfortunately, it was a skin only, in that whatever the tank really was, it remained so, there being no ability to tinker under the hood to give it the correct technical characteristics.

Regards,

John Kettler

[StieliAlpha]

9 hours ago, John Kettler said:

He sure did. Unfortunately, it was a skin only, in that whatever the tank really was, it remained so, there being no ability to tinker under the hood to give it the correct technical characteristics.

Regards,

John Kettler

Hi John

I thought so, too, but was proven wrong by @mjkerner and others in the “Assault boat” thread:

”Pete's correct.  They are model swaps. You rename the mdrs of the T34 to those of the PzIV and  when the game looks for a PzIV, it grabs the mdrs labeled as PzIV, not knowing that it now looks like a T34.  (You also need the proper texture added to the mod, of course.)  I swapped some models for a Crete/hypothetical Malta mod Phil (Kohlenklau) and I (and I think one or two others) were putting together but never finished.”

[John Kettler]

StieliAlpha,

Believe you're misinterpreting what you read. Had this discussion back then with kohlenklau, who was quite clear as to what the mod was and how it worked. All that's really going on here is that what looks like a T-34 is armed, armored and has all the other military-technical characteristics of whatever Panzer IV version he used. As far as the game engine is concerned, it's exactly the same as any other Mark IV of that type, but it doesn't look that way. By contrast, in PE, it was possible to get under the hood and change the weapon, armor and other characteristics. Know this not just theoretically but because I was directly involved in the PE Discussion Group doing exactly that. Worked with some top ordnance grogs to improve the fidelity of this tank sim. I do not refer to the later (barf) arcade game version.

Regards,

John Kettler