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Fleeting moment 2nd scenario design error


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I am playing the italian campaign right now, and the second scenario definitely (called dawn) has a design error calculating the victory points.

Just start the battle and do absolutely nothing and make a case fire. The result? You get a major victory. It is a nice way to keep all my ammo and forces 😄

@MOS:96B2P

1.jpg

 

 

Edited by Bufo
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If the scenario is a defensive scenario then you would naturally start on the objectives and get points for them while the AI attacker would have to try and take the objectives.  That's going to happen if you immediately ceasefire with any scenario that you are defending in.  I'm assuming that you are the defender in that scenario, although I'm not familiar with that battle in specific.  If you are attacking and you get a major victory when you ceasefire immediately then yeah, something is wrong.  Not so much if you are the defender though since, by selecting ceasefire you never give the AI an opportunity to capture the objectives.

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2 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

If the scenario is a defensive scenario then you would naturally start on the objectives and get points for them while the AI attacker would have to try and take the objectives.  That's going to happen if you immediately ceasefire with any scenario that you are defending in.  I'm assuming that you are the defender in that scenario, although I'm not familiar with that battle in specific.  If you are attacking and you get a major victory when you ceasefire immediately then yeah, something is wrong.  Not so much if you are the defender though since, by selecting ceasefire you never give the AI an opportunity to capture the objectives.

The player has to attack.

Edited by Bufo
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3 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

If the scenario is a defensive scenario then you would naturally start on the objectives and get points for them while the AI attacker would have to try and take the objectives.  That's going to happen if you immediately ceasefire with any scenario that you are defending in.  I'm assuming that you are the defender in that scenario, although I'm not familiar with that battle in specific.  If you are attacking and you get a major victory when you ceasefire immediately then yeah, something is wrong.  Not so much if you are the defender though since, by selecting ceasefire you never give the AI an opportunity to capture the objectives.

On a side note, I just loaded up a scenario from the Troina campaign where the player has to defend. If I make a case fire as the US defender immediately, I get a defeat and not a victory.

Edited by Bufo
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On the victory screen shot only one check mark shows so only one victory condition was completed.  I assume that was one of the attacker's victory conditions - so obviously not terrain or a unit objective.  What was the objective that you were able to achieve, was it just a parameter objective?  Theoretically if you had a parameter objective of keeping say, fifty percent of your force alive and you get half the total points for that, then that could cause the cease fire situation becoming a victory for you.  Especially if the defender has no terrain objectives and perhaps has a parameter objective that is the opposite of yours.

It also appears from the in game shot that the Americans are all sitting on terrain objectives (probably yours) but from the victory screen it would appear that the Americans don't get any points for sitting on those objectives, so they must only be objectives for you (attacker) otherwise the Americans would have gained points for them - and yet they gain no points for anything.

Edited by ASL Veteran
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You get the victory points for destroying the enemy (obviously that did not happen and this is why I made this post):

(few posts before you can see one of the objectives was to destroy the enemy)

 

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Edited by Bufo
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The only way you would get points for destruction of the enemy without actually destroying them is if they have to exit.  So apparently the scenario was designed for the Americans to exit the map somewhere - perhaps you are pursuing them while they are retreating?  That's the only thing I can think of - if you start the scenario and the Americans begin retreating then your objective is to destroy the Americans before they can exit the map - presumably the opposite map edge.  With exit conditions you gain the destruction victory points for every enemy unit that remains on the map (and no points for the ones that exit) and at the time you cease fired nobody had exited yet thus they are all counted as being destroyed.  The game is working as intended - the designer might be able to have accounted for the possibility of an immediate cease fire by using some sort of parameters condition to offset it.  At the same time though - who would load a battle up to cease fire immediately afterwards rather than playing it out?  Not something most designers would think of or perhaps account for.  Maybe in a campaign that is always a possibility, but I generally create standalones and so the possibility that someone would load up a standalone and just ceasefire seems remote.  I don't know who made it (wasn't me) but I'm sure they just didn't think of the immediate cease fire option when they came up with the victory conditions or they either would have come up with something different or they would have accounted for it somehow.

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38 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

who would load a battle up to cease fire immediately afterwards rather than playing it out?

I start the battle then I take too much casualties early on so I made a cease fire, its not an otherworldly scenario. 

You don't have to do it immediately, you can do it also 10-20 mins later. When I did after that I realized you can do it immediately.

We could talk about the whys and who woulds but the fact that you can instantly win by doing nothing is a design that needs to be corrected in my opinion.

I checked and yes it looks like they are exiting the map.

Edited by Bufo
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A Friendly Casualties parameter for the Allied side would fix this - set it to a percentage of casualties that testing reveals as the average number of casualties for about the half way point in the battle with a points value of 1,000.  This forces the player to commit and see the engagement through while ensuring that the Allied side loses the initial advantage as time draws on and the casualties mount up.  I use casualty parameters in this way frequently.

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