Use the back door!

[AncientForest]

Why cant your units use the back door.

Say you put a way-point at the rear of the house, shouldnt your units then use the nearest door, the rear door to exit the house. Why would your units use the front door, walk directly into enemy fire, and attempt to walk around the building. That is ridiculous. And it would have been incredibly easy to implement. And it would have made this simulation game more realistic; just that one little change would have made the game more enjoyable and strategic. But for some reason it's not in the game. I cant believe it.

[Glubokii Boy]

I belive BFC have been struggeling with a number of pathfinding/tac  AI behavior issius for the last few years...

The fix does not seem to be all that simple though unfortunatelly...

If it was...it would have been fixed by now

[LongLeftFlank]

We've all been there with pathing bro, feel ya pain.

While not a comprehensive pathing fix, one of my 'top 5' wishlist items is for designers to be able to paint AI 'don't go here, known threat!' (mined, fire lane, wevs.) squares. The unit TacAI for the affected side (even if player controlled) would 'see' these squares as marsh or sumfink, and avoid entering them. During setup, perhaps these threat zones would highlight in red and could also be labeled.

Yes, one could also use actual marsh or mud squares (I've been tempted at times, believe me) as a crude hack, but they are ugly and have other effects. They also affect both sides.

Edited May 10, 2020 by LongLeftFlank

[PhilM]

One "fix" - to my mind - that I've mentioned over the years and seems to me (well, it would, wouldn't it!) to be easier to implement is to be able to select a unit and its movement waypoint(s) as plotted by you and then hit a command to "force' the pathing algorithm to run and show you the route and waypoints that will actually be plotted by the A.I. for that unit only ...

 

If it shows that the unit will actually take a path that's different to what you want / expect, you can "think again" ...

 

As the intended route will only be based on what the unit already knows before the turn starts (and before it reacts during the turn to enemy fire), it doesn't seem to contradict FOW?

 

And its using only the pathing routine that will run when you hit go ... so requires no new features as such; and is voluntary and for use as you decide or not, so will slow down moves only as much as you let it?

 

Cures AFVs thinking they won't fit through gaps in buildings, impassable terrain, etc and going the long way around via LOS to the enemy? And building entrances, like this?

 

Unless the pathing routine won't work in a "preview" mode like that?

[Erwin]

I like the idea.  Suicidal pathing is a repeated headache and by far the main justification for a restart of the game (assuming you have a recent save).

[Warts 'n' all]

Normally my troops go through the door I want them to use. There are a couple of buildings that are problematic. Then of course, there are sometimes cases when elevation comes into play. A building on a slope can have a door blocked without the scenario designer even noticing. Grrrrrrrrr. 

[AncientForest]

I was thinking that perhaps certain doors were not real doors, that they were just cosmetic, and that that is why the unit was using the wrong door.

But you guys are saying it's a pathing issue. I see...

[Warts 'n' all]

22 minutes ago, AncientForest said:

I was thinking that perhaps certain doors were not real doors, that they were just cosmetic, and that that is why the unit was using the wrong door.

But you guys are saying it's a pathing issue. I see...

There have been quite a few threads about this problem in recent years, so you are definitely not alone in your frustration. All doors are real doors, but sadly don't always work as they should.If you use the "search" facility you should find the answers you need regarding the different modules that the problem occurs in.

[AncientForest]

12 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

There have been quite a few threads about this problem in recent years, so you are definitely not alone in your frustration. All doors are real doors, but sadly don't always work as they should.If you use the "search" facility you should find the answers you need regarding the different modules that the problem occurs in.

Wow, thanks.

The dev should be ashamed of himself.

Not fixed in years. Major issue.

[Howler]

19 minutes ago, AncientForest said:

Wow, thanks.

The dev should be ashamed of himself.

Not fixed in years. Major issue.

In fairness, it's their contract work with various governments worldwide that pays the bills. We get updates when they are able/allowed to retrofit their "game" release with bits from their "commercial" release.

It's a win-win. They get to eat - we get to play!

[Erwin]

15 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

All doors are real doors, but sadly don't always work as they should.

Normally I put a waypoint right beside the door to ensure that a team enters as desired.  But, just witnessed a team adjacent to a door still choose to hunt around the building to the door at the rear.

[Warts 'n' all]

10 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Normally I put a waypoint right beside the door to ensure that a team enters as desired.  But, just witnessed a team adjacent to a door still choose to hunt around the building to the door at the rear.

Yes, it is annoying when you do your best to avoid it and it still crops up. 

[Glubokii Boy]

51 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Normally I put a waypoint right beside the door to ensure that a team enters as desired. 

 The constant regrouping/organizing that happens at each waypoint makes this trick not aplicable in all situations though...unfortunatelly.

The troops doing this right infront of a door present good targeting oppertunity to any enemy observing this...

In many situations it would be better to move straith in without any delay 

 

 

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

In many situations it would be better to move straith in without any delay 

The assault team is covered by many other units observing any locations that could fire at the assault team.  However, my SOP when am not entirely sure what is in the building is to have the team PAUSE For 5-10 secs by a door (checking it out) and then HUNT in if not in a firefight.  

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

 The constant regrouping/organizing that happens at each waypoint makes this trick not aplicable in all situations though...unfortunatelly.

The troops doing this right infront of a door present good targeting oppertunity to any enemy observing this...

In many situations it would be better to move straith in without any delay 

 

 

that constant regrouping at WP is a PITA most the time. Wished our Pixeltroopers would simply keep moving if follow up WP are of the same type. Otherwise I prefer assault move for when going into or out of buildings. The TacAI can´t handle bottlenecks well when it comes to movement of larger groups ( > team size) usually. Remains a game of luck.

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

The assault team is covered by many other units observing any locations that could fire at the assault team.  However, my SOP when am not entirely sure what is in the building is to have the team PAUSE For 5-10 secs by a door (checking it out) and then HUNT in if not in a firefight.  

pausing is of good use in many situations. At least gives some time for intervention in case the TacAI decides for the worst.

[Howler]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

The assault team is covered by many other units observing any locations that could fire at the assault team.  However, my SOP when am not entirely sure what is in the building is to have the team PAUSE For 5-10 secs by a door (checking it out) and then HUNT in if not in a firefight.  

You're a brave man. Hunt, to me, means stop if anything shows. I'd rather get the men in rather than risk them aborting the move midway. For this reason, I pause for 10s outside the structure, issue a target to allow them to shoot/grenade and then place a Quick (default I) in the room followed by a small Target Arc circle of 20-50m (depending on the situation). The TA cancels the Target and gets them looking everywhere for more bad guys.

I couldn't use a hunt with the above recipe as there would be no way to insure a TA would cancel the target command. I'll sometimes use a FAST in place of the QUICK if I'm certain everyone is suppressed.

[Glubokii Boy]

As an example when a quick entrance might be preferable...

- when you are in a firefight and you want part of your force to advance...Into a bildning...that you are pretty much sure is empty. That is...not an assult on an enemy held bildning but rather an advance into an adventagious possition to continue/advance the fight.

 

[Erwin]

Am always concerned about ammo preservation.  So, my take on this tactical challenge is:

1) If one is not sure there is an enemy in a building and one wants to suppress a building it's better to AREA FIRE at it by other units for a minute (or many minutes depending on ammo levels and time crunch of scenario).    Then... QUICK move the assault team to the door and PAUSE for 5-10 secs.  In this instance I don't want the assaulting team to waste ammo, grenades and RPG's so I do not issue a TARGET fire order when it is PAUSED outside.  Then... QUICK or FAST move inside.  The hope is that if there is any enemy they will be suppressed and the assaulting team can see em and pick em off first.

2) If one knows or is pretty certain there is an enemy waiting in the building, then in addition to AREA FIRE suppression from supporting units, I have the assaulting unit TARGET fire for 5-10 before a QUICK or FAST move inside ending with a waypoint with a 360 degree arc so it can choose its own target (assuming there is one) after entering.

[AncientForest]

On 5/12/2020 at 12:02 PM, Erwin said:

Am always concerned about ammo preservation.  So, my take on this tactical challenge is:

1) If one is not sure there is an enemy in a building and one wants to suppress a building it's better to AREA FIRE at it by other units for a minute (or many minutes depending on ammo levels and time crunch of scenario).    Then... QUICK move the assault team to the door and PAUSE for 5-10 secs.  In this instance I don't want the assaulting team to waste ammo, grenades and RPG's so I do not issue a TARGET fire order when it is PAUSED outside.  Then... QUICK or FAST move inside.  The hope is that if there is any enemy they will be suppressed and the assaulting team can see em and pick em off first.

2) If one knows or is pretty certain there is an enemy waiting in the building, then in addition to AREA FIRE suppression from supporting units, I have the assaulting unit TARGET fire for 5-10 before a QUICK or FAST move inside ending with a waypoint with a 360 degree arc so it can choose its own target (assuming there is one) after entering.

How do you target for a set period?

[Howler]

1 hour ago, AncientForest said:

How do you target for a set period?

Two ways:

1) Use Target Briefly (default J) which will fire in 15s increments; or

2) Old school by using a combination of Target... Pause 'X' seconds...Face (default G).

[Erwin]

19 minutes ago, Howler said:

2) Old school by using a combination of Target... Pause 'X' seconds...Face (default G).

You know... After all these years I didn't know the Face command could be used in this way to limit firing time(!)  That's really useful as one can not fire TARGET LIGHT in 15 second increments.

Usually, I make a unit move to a new waypoint with a Facing order or Target Arc after the desired time period (PAUSE) of TARGET LIGHT.

Thanks! 

 

[Howler]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

You know... After all these years I didn't know the Face command could be used in this way to limit firing time(!)  That's really useful as one can not fire TARGET LIGHT in 15 second increments.

Usually, I make a unit move to a new waypoint with a Facing order or Target Arc after the desired time period (PAUSE) of TARGET LIGHT.

My bad and I can't edit my post to fully expand by adding "set waypoint, Face at waypoint to cancel the Target/Target Light. Sounds like you are already well aware of the alternative to Target Briefly (#1).

 

[Erwin]

What a shame...  Was hoping you found a way to TARGET LIGHT for 15-45 seconds.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I've come to believe that crowding may be part of this apparent routing issue, the bigger the unit trying to enter, the higher the chance some (or all) of them will do something dumb.

My 'Hornets' Nest' map, while very small, is exceedingly complex and (AFAIK) all the doors, balconies alleys etc. have now been fully tested for routing.....Small units can move around the map with ease (& a lot of waypoints), but I wouldn't recommend trying to cross it with full squads.