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Infantry vs Tanks


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16 minutes ago, Sven said:

Is there a way to knock out tanks with regular infantry?

Aye, but you need to get em close. So close terrain and/or poor vis. It’s a high risk activity so ensure target tank buttoned up. Also in case it all goes wrong (which is likely) skit off an anti-armour team. They’ll attack the enemy tank with whatever anti armour greatness etc they have. 
 

There are threads about tactics and more detailed explanations on increasing your chances so worth searching out. 

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8 hours ago, Sven said:

Is there a way to knock out tanks with regular infantry?

Hello Seven of Nine...

Of course there is, just walk up (well, better to Run) to one within 1-2 Action-Spots and blow it away...9 out of 10 times your Squad (Nah...apparently you only need a 2-Man Team) will throw nades (to represent Close-Assault) and either destroy or neutralize Armor, and all in the same turn.

 

Edited by JoMc67
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Its hard to answer the question generically because it boils down to which side, which force type, what weapons they're carrying and what vehicle they're facing. Germans may be carrying Panzerfausts... except for the ones who aren't. They may field rifle grenades. Russians may be carrying hand-thrown RPG-43 but that weapon's listed unnamed among 'grenades' so you can't be sure your men are carrying it or not. Engineers/Sappers might have satchel charges to throw at tanks (if you can get 'em to throw it). 'Hero' tactics rarely work... for both sides. whether its a hero tank charging into the midst of an enemy force with no infantry screen or hero infantry scampering out onto open ground to take on a steel beast.

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9 hours ago, George MC said:

ensure target tank buttoned up

As George says, ya gotta button em up and if possible degrade the tank's systems with other weapons.  Common sense and RL tactics would be to smoke the hell out of it so your AT team can waltz up (pref SLOW move) using cover of very poor vis. and throw whatever they got at it and scamper away.  However in the game the tank crew often seem to have telepathic powers and will notice your team even in very bad vis and will react with lightning speed to kill em.

In the game, as JoMc67 says, cos of the tank unit's AI decision cycle it can be better to QUICK or FAST move at the tank and hope the team can destroy the tank b4 the AI telepathy kicks in.

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it helps if you are going to try,

to send infantry in from two sides if you can and are so desperate to want to take it out.

That way, the tank will only focus on one group, giving the other time to attack if its going to.

Of course, you are risking more men to possible die in a desperate move.

best to being hiding where the tank comes to you, but that cannot always happen, can it.

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I took some video from my recent game, hopefully this will be helpful

part 1&2,  inf units staged an ambush from both side. This is a prefect place for an genade assault situation. Constraint terrain, bottleneck, and there is an expensive roadblock, a destroyed Pz IV in front of enemy's route. So when first tank get in, the speed was reduced to crawling.  Note that I was concerning the enemy is going to area fire the entrance, so I placed my inf 2 action points (16m) away. They throw 2-3 genade, all missed but one of it disabled the tank

https://youtu.be/7yXRQT3_UVE

https://youtu.be/lYCw1GuQLPQ

 

Part 3, I moved my inf closer, 1 ap away. This time their genade assault became much more frecious, one tank destoryed , another one disabled

 

part 4, another genade assault but this one is a failure, because enemy tank running through my infantry line at high speed. My inf throw 3 genades but all missed

https://youtu.be/ai9JVsYg9_4

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/6/2020 at 2:17 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

I took some video from my recent game, hopefully this will be helpful

part 1&2,  inf units staged an ambush from both side. This is a prefect place for an genade assault situation. Constraint terrain, bottleneck, and there is an expensive roadblock, a destroyed Pz IV in front of enemy's route. So when first tank get in, the speed was reduced to crawling.  Note that I was concerning the enemy is going to area fire the entrance, so I placed my inf 2 action points (16m) away. They throw 2-3 genade, all missed but one of it disabled the tank

https://youtu.be/7yXRQT3_UVE

https://youtu.be/lYCw1GuQLPQ

 

Part 3, I moved my inf closer, 1 ap away. This time their genade assault became much more frecious, one tank destoryed , another one disabled

 

part 4, another genade assault but this one is a failure, because enemy tank running through my infantry line at high speed. My inf throw 3 genades but all missed

https://youtu.be/ai9JVsYg9_4

Wow. Third one was action filled. :)

Is that how it looks on a Mac, btw?

 

 

 

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Successful tank hunting is the most satisfying thing to do in this series imo. Nothing better than taking out a 400 point heavy tank with some sneaky grunts. Unless you're the Russians. I find their AT rifles to be very ineffective. Didn't the Soviets get US bazookas from the lend lease program? Perhaps we will see that in the next module? It kind of surprises me that the Russians didn't have their own rocket anti tank weapon for infantry but I suppose German tanks were uncommon by the time they got their economy kicking but alas I'm no expert. 

Edited by Anonymous_Jonze
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9 hours ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

I find their AT rifles to be very ineffective.

Use them within their capabilities, they won't do much to a Panther, but they can ruin a command halftrack's day easily enough.

9 hours ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

Didn't the Soviets get US bazookas from the lend lease program?

Yes they did.....The Russians also got their hands on quite a few ex-German AT weapons, I recall reading reports of them capturing several thousand Panzerfausts at a time.

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It's unclear what the Russians seem to have done with the bazookas they received in Lend Lease. Panzerfausts and Schrecks were usually just put right back into service by the same frontline troops who had captured them. The bazooka seems to have had very little presence at the front though. I've heard that they were issued to reconnaissance teams but i'm willing to bet quite a few of them ended up at HQs. 

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Doesn't seem like it was a bad place to have directed them either. The Germans had some of the most heavily armed and armored reconnaissance formations in the world. Some of those Panzer Aufklarungs were organized like mini Panzer Divisions. Being in a Soviet reconnaissance unit probably meant you were likely to to run into an Sdk 234 or Luchs at some point and you weren't going to sick the BA-64 on those. 

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That's a point in itself.....In the anti-tank role I'd take an IS-2 over a Bazooka every time!

TBH wartime Soviet rocketry seems to be a really mixed bag.....Their real fascination with fireworks only kicked off after WWII, notably under Kruschev.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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20 hours ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

 I find their AT rifles to be very ineffective. 

Yeah, me too. I've had success using their AT guns, field guns and AAA against Panthers. Too bad those things are a nightmare and a half to relocate.

8 minutes ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

Did the Russians just have so many tanks in 44 that they weren't needed? You don't seem to hear much about Soviet Rifle Divisions attacking German Tank positions on their own.

I'm guessing that would be a rare scenario, as a Panzer Division was more mobile than a Rifle Division. There's no better scenario for the Panzer Division, than catching a Rifle division on the move and in the open. They could pull back and/or launch a counter-attack. A tank's main armament is its tracks.

Late-war Soviet offensives usually involved hundreds of tanks, following an ungodly barrage of every caliber imaginable and, possibly, IL-2 CAS. A Panzer Division would probably be ordered to plug the gaps in infantry divisions' lines, to counter the most dire Soviet break-through attempts.

3 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

Being in a Soviet reconnaissance unit probably meant you were likely to to run into an Sdk 234 or Luchs at some point and you weren't going to sick the BA-64 on those. 

That's a job for the T-70! Maybe, the BA-10/11 armoured cars, as they packed a 45mm AT, too. They got rarer as the war went on, but were still in service until the end. So, as much as I'd like to see them -- I doubt they'd be added in the new module. Recon units were often equipped with lend-lease goodies like the M3 Stuarts and Valentines -- and those we may still see.

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37 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Yeah, me too. I've had success using their AT guns, field guns and AAA against Panthers. Too bad those things are a nightmare and a half to relocate.

I'm guessing that would be a rare scenario, as a Panzer Division was more mobile than a Rifle Division. There's no better scenario for the Panzer Division, than catching a Rifle division on the move and in the open. They could pull back and/or launch a counter-attack. A tank's main armament is its tracks.

Late-war Soviet offensives usually involved hundreds of tanks, following an ungodly barrage of every caliber imaginable and, possibly, IL-2 CAS. A Panzer Division would probably be ordered to plug the gaps in infantry divisions' lines, to counter the most dire Soviet break-through attempts.

That's a job for the T-70! Maybe, the BA-10/11 armoured cars, as they packed a 45mm AT, too. They got rarer as the war went on, but were still in service until the end. So, as much as I'd like to see them -- I doubt they'd be added in the new module. Recon units were often equipped with lend-lease goodies like the M3 Stuarts and Valentines -- and those we may still see.

Great responses guys! I recall one defensive battle where I had three AT squads all shooting at the flanks of a Hummel in an open field. I think I shot at it for 10 turns only making spalling hits. It pulled back and started devastating my squads which were hidden in several cabins. : ) I threw my hands up and sent my lone SU-152 only to see it get destroyed. Good times! Anyone looking for an actual challenge against AI in red thunder should defend as the Russians with very minimal tank support!

Edited by Anonymous_Jonze
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Let's remember by the end of the war German armor was a spent force. Few remaining tanks, little remaining petrol. Ammunition shortages. The Vistula-Oder offensive did to German armor in the east what the Bulge battle did to German armor in the west. I put together four scenarios for the coming module. Totaled together, they field just four still-running German tanks versus (let me count on my fingers) 35-ish Russian tanks. Don't worry, the other guys' scenarios more than made up for my lack of German armor ;)

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14 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Let's remember by the end of the war German armor was a spent force. Few remaining tanks, little remaining petrol. Ammunition shortages. The Vistula-Oder offensive did to German armor in the east what the Bulge battle did to German armor in the west. I put together four scenarios for the coming module. Totaled together, they field just four still-running German tanks versus (let me count on my fingers) 35-ish Russian tanks. Don't worry, the other guys' scenarios more than made up for my lack of German armor ;)

Sounds excellent. I'd be lying if I didn't believe Germany had thousands  apoun thousands of tanks and their army was the most mechanized in the war. But that was before college when I was a bit of Wehraboo. ; )

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It just occurred to me, that I didn't really answer OP's question. My apologies. Here's a good video on what folks did before RPGs:

 

In short: Don't engage tanks head-on -- circumvent as much as possible. Mitigate situational awareness with fire or smoke. Sneak in on the rear. Throw anything you got on the engine, tracks and other weak spots.

16 minutes ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

Anyone looking for an actual challenge against AI in red thunder should defend as the Russians with very minimal tank support!

This is very true. Each cannon is worth its weight in gold.

9 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

I put together four scenarios for the coming module. Totaled together, they field just four still-running German tanks versus (let me count on my fingers) 35-ish Russian tanks.

Sounds fun! I've been looking forward to the more unconventional, Red-Dawn-esque, type stuff in the new module -- and Seelow Heights trench warfare.

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31 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

The Vistula-Oder offensive did to German armor in the east what the Bulge battle did to German armor in the west.

Bagration was hardly kind on German armour.....5th Pz. was a spent force after that operation.

TBH it's not so much the Berlin fighting, as all the other stuff we will be able to do (Partisans), that appeals to me the most.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
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3 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

That's a job for the T-70! Maybe, the BA-10/11 armoured cars, as they packed a 45mm AT, too. They got rarer as the war went on, but were still in service until the end. So, as much as I'd like to see them -- I doubt they'd be added in the new module. Recon units were often equipped with lend-lease goodies like the M3 Stuarts and Valentines -- and those we may still see.

I think the trouble with the Soviet early war armored cars was that they just didn't quite fit into the sort of All-or-Nothing thinking that permeated the Red Army and its procurement. The BA-10/11 might well be a great armored car but comrade we can only afford to have a few chassis taking up production lines at a time. It was probably seen as neither light enough or subtle enough to make a good scout but also insufficiently protected and armed to make a good tank either. "Any job we'd use the BA-10 for we'd prefer to use either a BA-64 or a Valentine." 

The chassis it was based on was a modified version of the GAZ-AAA's chassis...which means it probably wasn't standard with that truck anymore and the Soviets would've axed its production in 1941 on those grounds. Can't show that this is what happened for sure, just that it's a theory. As usual any that happened to survive on the front were welcome to stay in service for as long as they survived and the vehicle probably wasn't so different from the GAZ-AAA that it couldn't share some parts with it. 

Also I think it weighed quite a bit for a wheeled vehicle and that was never good when conducting operations in Russia the Land of the Mud Rivers. 

Edited by SimpleSimon
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