Task Force Thunder Mission 1 - Why the mines?

[Capt. Toleran]

Given there is a known issue with these mines, which were never there in the original, and apparently unremovable by the breach teams (at least my teams wouldn't blast them away), why are they in there?  There's a whole host of problematic behaviors and it really sours the campaign to start that way.  "Ok, we cleared some lanes in the mines, finally.... No, don't go over there.." BLAM!  "No, don't back away into them.." BLAM!  Not a great way to show off the new engine to those of us who have been along for the ride and invested early since CMBO days.  Why not just take them out of the campaign mission?  Am I missing something?  At some point the regret really starts to sink in that this isn't the game experience I paid for.  There are plenty of heartbreaking moments in the game without clunky mechanics that have had 13+ years to get worked out making a mess of a game session.  While I accept some of that is inevitable, the choice to put mines there with no way to resolve it short of calling an arty strike on yourself is somewhat baffling.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Capt. Toleran
had more to say.

[Lethaface]

I'm not in the position to answer your question, as I don;t know why.

I do know that mines can be marked' by engineers, after which infantry can sort of safely walk trough them at 'move' speed (not faster!!). Vehicles should still stay clear of marked mines, as they are only marked and still very active. The best way of detecting mines is with engineers moving (not hunt/quick/fast) or slow near the mines. AFAIK standing still near mines for a while doesn't really help.

Like you say there is a way to clear a path with heavy artillery (155mm). Those will detonate mines that are near the shell during impact (I guess an 'armor mission' for the artillery should do best). Those aren't necessary though.

In my playthrough of the campaign last year I didn't use artillery, although I think I do remember it proved quite a nuissance to even detect the mines. More than normally IIRC. I think the aim is to force the player to cross a mined path while in contact with the enemy. The plan seems to be working rather good from the AI point of view, I'd say

However, the campaign offers plenty of great moments to come. Don't let this stop you from punching through that first line of defense, into Syria proper! 

  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Move your breach teams to the marked location.

Have them move around a bit until they spot the mines.

Use the 'Mark Mines' order.

Move vehicles throught the marked mines slowly and keep your fingers crossed.

[com-intern]

7 hours ago, Capt. Toleran said:

Given there is a known issue with these mines, which were never there in the original, and apparently unremovable by the breach teams (at least my teams wouldn't blast them away), why are they in there?  There's a whole host of problematic behaviors and it really sours the campaign to start that way.  "Ok, we cleared some lanes in the mines, finally.... No, don't go over there.." BLAM!  "No, don't back away into them.." BLAM!  Not a great way to show off the new engine to those of us who have been along for the ride and invested early since CMBO days.  Why not just take them out of the campaign mission?  Am I missing something?  At some point the regret really starts to sink in that this isn't the game experience I paid for.  There are plenty of heartbreaking moments in the game without clunky mechanics that have had 13+ years to get worked out making a mess of a game session.  While I accept some of that is inevitable, the choice to put mines there with no way to resolve it short of calling an arty strike on yourself is somewhat baffling.

Take a bit and slow engineers around the minefield to ID the locations. Each mine covers an 8x8 meter action square. You should be able to inch vehicles along either side of the mines quite easily.

That is what I did on that campaign mission and experienced no issues.

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

The single line mine coverage at the opening is somewhat randomized every time the scenario is played. Not sure if there is a version with a full coverage but for me there were always 1 or 2 uncovered spots that can be discovered when marking with the engineers, give them enough time.

I am glad that this mission is in the campaign and don´t see a reason for it to be removed. The only thing that could see a change is the briefing that gives incorrect instructions for the the handling of mines and might cause confusion especially among new CM players. It should be replaced by the information that heavy calibre artillery such as the from the start available 120mm mortars can clear the mines aswell. Same is by the way the case for the 2nd mission briefing of the Monte Cassino campaign.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[Sgt.Squarehead]

What we really need are Mine-Roller/Plough/Bulldozer-Tanks.....In ALL of the CM titles! 

@Battlefront.com  Please! 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead

[zmoney]

9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

What we really need are Mine-Roller/Plough/Bulldozer-Tanks.....In ALL of the CM titles! 

@Battlefront.com  Please! 

Agreed!!!!!
 

Capt T I made the same point you did ages ago about mines being a in removable object in CMBN. Luckily for that game a vehicle pack was released with mine sweepers. I do hope that eventually engineers will be able to unarm a mine field  or at least a mine sweeper for this game. Especially for mines place on the asphalt of a main highway like the one in the first mission those should definitely be removable.

 

Pro tip: if you keep your vehicles to the extreme right tile after the engineer teams mark the mines you should make it through without an incident.

Edited April 11, 2020 by zmoney

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

I can´t recall the mission background but I assumed these mines aren´t simply placed on the highway but may be partially or fully dug into it. On patrols in crisis areas even on paved roads or highways you´re advised to be always on the lookout for (new) grooves, surface changes, or other strange looking pavement as even little groups of uncons managed to dig up the pavement, place IED/Mines, and restore it in the matter of a night, sometimes they do a really good job. An army that has a lot of more time in order to prepare for a likely invasion might even do a more thorough job. If this is the case it is not always easily removable at least in the timeframes of CM scenarios not mentioning complicated anti-tampering mechanisms. EOD can be a really challenging and time consuming process other than what is potrayed in most games or what gamers perceive to be true. 

Although having a mine clearance machine of some sort or a way to blow the heck out of mines in the modern CM titles, that would be definitely welcome. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[zmoney]

Aquila I believe you are missing the point.

1. In game terms it is really lame if the campaign is designed where on the first mission (of what 16), you have to drive through a small break in the berm, filled with mines. Mines that will destroy at least half your force. Makes it even worse when you have engineers with a mark mine ability that does absolutely nothing. Now in this particular case there is a work around, so it’s not impossible. Mind you this is a known to be mined location, says so in the briefing. My point all along has been if mines are in the game then there needs to be a way to defeat them.

2. Real world situation non game. With a known mine field there is no way in hell any commander would have his troops just drive through it with the possibility of losing half his vehicles. Now an unknown mine field sure you can hit a mine by surprise. But in a situation similar to the one we are talking about no one would ever drive through a mine field it would be stupid. Plus, as the start of a massive invasion the engineers would have cleared a path through a known minefield.

 

Now I know someone is going to say “one time I heard of engineers marking a way through a minefield and a vehicle still blew up.” I’m actually ok with that happening one in a thousand times, but in CMSF if you drive your vehicles through a marked mine field, half if not more of your vehicles will still hit mines.

My main argument is, there needs to be a way to effectively deal with mines in these modern games.

 

 

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

@zmoney I get your point and pretty sure understand what you´re up to as I mentioned I myself think its a good idea to have something added with mine-clearing ability.

However again  if if this thread is read thoroughly there are several ways to get past this minefield unharmed with your vehicles either with artillery our discovering the true mine-free spots (not talking about this funneling along mines method, never used that.) Only players unaware of these ways usually will get their tanks blown up. Despite this it is the only CMSF1/2 scenario I ever encountered this challenge and don´t think that it really requires these typical somewhat melodramatic "I am investing into CM since Pong but now I am so disappointed/shocked that I already regret my expense" parade speeches.

If a mission with this knowledge demand should be the first mission in general design terms is a different question. I think it is perfectly fine but the briefing with the incorrect mine handling guidance is definitely not helping new players. As mentioned in the previous post if it would include a good explanation with artillery usage or providing a tip that the Syrians might left a spot unmined for their own traffic, or at least include information in the manual about detailed mine handling we wouldn´t see these threads here.

Mark Mines only helps the infantryman

Dark times for my vehicles oh damn

Thats it

Edited April 11, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[zmoney]

Damn “that’s it” sassy!!! Lol, yea melodramatic is a little off putting in threads such as this. But had to show support for (hopefully) some future system to deal with mines. In my mind that is the only thin lacking in CMSF2 at the moment.

[Erwin]

I have not have big problems with mines.  However, I agree that it is odd that we have mineclearing vehicles in CMBN but not in CMSF2 or other titles.

[General Jack Ripper]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:06 AM, Capt. Toleran said:

Given there is a known issue with these mines, which were never there in the original, and apparently unremovable by the breach teams (at least my teams wouldn't blast them away), why are they in there?

The original mission in CMSF1 mentioned a minefield, but there were no landmines in the game.

Seems logical to add them into the mission now they are available.

Quote

"Ok, we cleared some lanes in the mines, finally.... No, don't go over there.." BLAM!  "No, don't back away into them.." BLAM!  Not a great way to show off the new engine to those of us who have been along for the ride and invested early since CMBO days.  Why not just take them out of the campaign mission?  Am I missing something?

A clear lane through the mines is designed into the mission. You need only detect all of the mines with your engineers.

The mines themselves are antitank mines, and pose no threat to your troops, feel free to walk around the area and find them all. Once you've found them, run your vehicles through the gap single file.

See below. My engineers begin their work at 5:00.

 

[General Jack Ripper]

On 4/10/2020 at 3:00 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

What we really need are Mine-Roller/Plough/Bulldozer-Tanks.....In ALL of the CM titles! 

@Battlefront.com  Please! 

Or at the very least, the Stryker engineering vehicle already in the game should have a mine-clearing dozer blade, LIKE IT DOES IN REAL LIFE.

You could even use the existing mine clearance command from the sherman crab, just without the chain flails.

It can't be that difficult, can it?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Amen to that!