MOS:96B2P Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Bulletpoint said: I guess I can rephrase my question as: Is there any way I can be smart about it and use these Pumas as anything else than "recon by suicide"? I will sometimes dismount a crew and use it on foot to gain contacts while a second Puma (or other vehicle / team) provides over-watch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 12 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said: I will sometimes dismount a crew and use it on foot to gain contacts while a second Puma (or other vehicle / team) provides over-watch. I just re-ran the scenario and tried this. I was able to keep the crews unspotted for quite a long time by only using SLOW movement and sticking to long grass... however, in the end, both crew teams were mortared. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: I just re-ran the scenario and tried this. I was able to keep the crews unspotted for quite a long time by only using SLOW movement and sticking to long grass... however, in the end, both crew teams were mortared. I am sad for the crew but a little bit impressed that the AI called in mortars to drive off the recon. Using mortars did not reveal the position of direct fire weapons. Something a human in a PBEM might do. But we still have not really gotten good use out of the Puma.......... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Just now, MOS:96B2P said: a little bit impressed that the AI called in mortars to drive off the recon. I think they just call in mortars on anything they spot... also I am not exactly sure if there were any direct fire weapons with LOS to their position. It might be there was only a 60mm mortar with direct lay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 I have also tried using AC crews as dismounted recon. They are good if you can find a good hiding position hundreds of meters from the enemy and let them sit and watch for many minutes. But, they are not so good if moving or get close to enemy, and as Bulletpoint says, can get targeted and killed quickly. Then you also lose the use of a valuable vehicle. Better to use expendable 2-man teams for recon close to enemy positions. It's unfortunate that no matter how hard I try to keep em safe, they almost always get KIA. In RL the teams would have more time to move more carefully/slowly than we are usually allowed in a CM scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Erwin said: I have also tried using AC crews as dismounted recon. They are good if you can find a good hiding position hundreds of meters from the enemy and let them sit and watch for many minutes. I'm trying to find out how far from the enemy they actually have to be to stand a chance. My current experience tells me at least apprx 500m if they only have tall grass to crawl around and hide in. Closer if they have better concealment such as forest. But that depends a lot on amount and type of trees too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: I am not exactly sure if there were any direct fire weapons with LOS to their position. It might be there was only a 60mm mortar with direct lay. Yes, that might be the case. 7 minutes ago, Erwin said: Better to use expendable 2-man teams for recon close to enemy positions. Generally speaking I agree with this. But then we're back to the original question. How to use a Puma in the recon role in CM? Edited April 16, 2020 by MOS:96B2P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 minute ago, MOS:96B2P said: But then we're back to the original question. How to use a Puma in the recon roll in CM? It seems too good a vehicle to just drive the road and see when it gets blown up. But it's not that great either, unless you're playing a mission where there's basically no enemy tanks or AT guns. So the Puma sits in a bit of an awkward place in the OOB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 27 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: Is there any way I can be smart about it and use these Pumas as anything else than "recon by suicide"? I've had success using them hull down, for spotting, light support and observing artillery fire. I put the most vulnerable cars "turret-down", so only the commander can pop his head to see over the incline. I've lost a couple of commanders, this way -- but it's still safer than keeping a dismounted observer. The armour does provide some protection against shrapnel, and the cars can reverse quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarendJanNL Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Is it only the Puma or the Greyhound or does this also apply to other armed recon vehicles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, DerKommissar said: I put the most vulnerable cars "turret-down", so only the commander can pop his head to see over the incline. How do you manage to find the exact spot where only the commander's head pokes over the incline? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: How do you manage to find the exact spot where only the commander's head pokes over the incline? Experience and a lot of experimental waypoint placement. After you've been playing CM for a year or two you'll get it. (That was a joke btw.) On a typical small CM map, one cannot safely conduct vehicular recon. On a small map, best to use AC's in keyholed positions for inf support like Stummels. One needs 3Km+ maps for vehicular recon fun (imo). Edited April 16, 2020 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: How do you manage to find the exact spot where only the commander's head pokes over the incline? You "guesstimate". Most Puma variants have very slim turrets/casemates, so hull-down is almost turret-down. This makes specifically the 2cm autocannon turret and the 7.5 stummel variants particularly suited for observation. The commander can observe from the edge of the turret/casemate, or he can fully open up and stick his torso out. The gunner/loader can also help out with open-topped spotting. The 5cm cannon, enclosed, Puma is a slightly different animal. It's like two times taller, and the commander has to deal with a small hatch. This makes it worse for observation. Luckily, it has a tank turret -- so it's designed for a hull-down role. I'm more comfortable having this car accompany tanks, as long as it keeps hull-down. I've never used the 7.5cm "pakwagon" variant. I don't know if they're even in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 hours ago, DerKommissar said: The commander can observe from the edge of the turret/casemate, or he can fully open up and stick his torso out. I'm wondering if the commanders of those vehicles actually are able to observe from the edge of the casemate, or if they are assumed to be fully ducked down and only looking through periscopes, even if the graphics show them poking slightly above the edge.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 What I have never tested is if having the AFV unbuttons actually enables better LOS. ie: No LOS from hulldown and buttoned. But, if one unbuttons, suddenly there is LOS. Need to check that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 ACs are for exploitation - when you knock out the last tank, they can race in and start massacring the infantry... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, Freyberg said: ACs are for exploitation - when you knock out the last tank, they can race in and start massacring the infantry... I have a pretty bad track record of guessing if that was the last enemy tank or not.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Bulletpoint said: I have a pretty bad track record of guessing if that was the last enemy tank or not.. That's exactly why it's better to use something nimble and cheap for exploitation..! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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