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I usually say this when people say that CM games are expensive: I have lots of games that have cost me 20 or 30 $ - and I have played them less than 10 hours. Then there´s CMBN. It costs far more,

There's no spending an hour issuing orders if you play REALTIME . CM is as easy or as intimidating as you make it, yourself. Take scenario design, for example. Some scenario designers spend months bui

If you ask on this forum you are gonna get some pretty biased answers.   Like a lot of grognard-style wargames, the CM games can be clunky and buggy at times, and they can be very difficult to ge

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1 hour ago, Freyberg said:

There's a minor bug in CMBN, if you consider it a bug, where sometimes (not especially often) individual soldiers will get 'stuck' in a hedgerow when their squad advances.

I don't find it especially irritating as there's a certain realism in that sort of hedgerow confusion, although this behaviour is unintentional and is due for removal.

Some forum members find this very annoying, but I find it doesn't really detract from what is the flagship - nay, the starship! - of the CM series.

Never experienced that. Is that soldier stuck for long or does he follow his comrades after a while?

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38 minutes ago, Dynaman216 said:

Is the "rout toward enemy" issue fixed?  Or was that just in some very limited circumstances?  (not being snarky, I don't play CM:N much since I hate hedgerows any old way)

Still to be fixed - if it can be tuned out.  Not game breaking IMHO but can be odd and disconcerting seeing pixeltroopen going lairy around hedgerow gaps and charging forward with no due regard for their virtual selves. Just deal with them as they present themselves machine-gun.gifand move on...

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2 hours ago, Freyberg said:

There's a minor bug in CMBN, if you consider it a bug, where sometimes (not especially often) individual soldiers will get 'stuck' in a hedgerow when their squad advances.

I don't find it especially irritating as there's a certain realism in that sort of hedgerow confusion, although this behaviour is unintentional and is due for removal.

Some forum members find this very annoying, but I find it doesn't really detract from what is the flagship - nay, the starship! - of the CM series.

I've had that happen a few times.  The workaround is to bring the rest of the squad/team back to the location of the "stuck" individual and then plot another movement order away from the hedgerow.  That usually "unshakes" the stuck pixeltruppen.

And the "retreat through the hedgerow towards the enemy" issue is still present in CMBN and will make itself noticed in any scenario featuring bocage.  BF did have success in limiting that behavior with the 02 patch, but it still occurs enough to be frustrating.

As for whether to buy or not?  As others have stated: check-out the demos.  That's the best way to determine whether this game is for you.

Edited by Myles Keogh
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On 3/6/2020 at 9:02 AM, Freyr Oakenshield said:

So..., er... I've been toying with this idea of buying one of the CM2 games, but the priced seem a little steep (discounted 100$ still seems a little high for a computer game...), so I was wondering if you could try to, perhaps, convince me that it's good value for money...? Any new modules coming up? Is this series still alive? Are the developers still looking after it? Are there many scenario available? Any free scenarios? Are there good prospects for the game's growth? ...

I'm guessing by "discounted 100$" you mean one of the bigger bundles. It's some of the best value on the market.

- There's no game on the market that models as many units or equipment, with as much fidelity as CM2. All infantry are highly detailed, and all vehicles have interiors (with realistic damage modelling). Every unit is well researched, and reflects a plethora of soft factors. All weapons are faithfully available, with their appropriate ammo types and quantities.

- There is no shortage of campaigns, and scenarios. Each game comes with a couple of full campaigns, and each module features a few full campaigns, on top. So, with a bundle, you should have 5 or so, full campaigns. There's also dozens of standalone scenarios coupled with a Quick Battle Generator (build your own force).

- There is a huge database of community campaigns and scenarios for every title, if that's not enough. 100% completion is pretty much impossible. There's also multiplayer, if you're into that.

- The devs are incredibly dedicated to maintaining CM2 games. Each title is updated to the latest engine version, with the tragic exception of CM:Afghanistan. They even remade the first one: Shock Force 2. Last module was released in December, and another is currently on the way. The devs post status updates on this forum, when they can.

- The games are fairly accessible, compared to most of its competitors. Just place waypoints, and your troops will do the rest. You can also manage inventories, place troops in different rooms/levels of a building, instruct tanks to assume defilade positions and direct artillery. Easy to learn -- difficult to master.

I started collecting these games, while I was still in university. At first, the price tag was daunting. I started out with the Black Sea base game. Once I got into it, I realized that it's more bang for your buck than most games on the market. With today's 80$ games, pre-order dlc and season passes, that's even more true.

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1 hour ago, Myles Keogh said:

And the "retreat through the hedgerow towards the enemy" issue is still present in CMBN and will make itself noticed in any scenario featuring bocage.  BF did have success in limiting that behavior with the 02 patch, but it still occurs enough to be frustrating.

This is the bug I am referring to. IMO it would be possible to overlook it if CM:Normandy was the only game available. However, with CM:Eastern Front, Italy, Syria, and so on being available I think it makes Normandy an non-starter.

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The bug-out bug - where panicked troops run in random directions - is present to some degree in all the titles.

I see it mostly with crews of KO'd vehicles, because I try quite hard not to let infantry reach that point. Again, as a bug it doesn't bother me - throughout the history of war, routing is one of the worst things that can happen to soldiers. This behaviour is unintentional and due for a fix, but it's to be expected that troops who bug out stand a very good chance of being killed, so it's not game-breakingly frustrating to me.

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Agree to disagree then. I just find it frustrating enough that I would not recommend anyone buy CM:BN unless they were absolutely married to the idea of playing that first few months of the war. Like I said, I would be more forgiving of the issue if CM:BN were the only game in existence but it isn't.

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I've been back to CMBN for the last 6 weeks or so.  I am having a ton of fun.  I'm replaying some battles I first tried when I was new to CM ~4 or 5 years ago, and there's still lots of battles I never played at all.  Lots of nasty battles as Brits, Canadians, US, Germans, some w heavy bocage, some out in more open terrain, some in ditch & dike terrain in Holland.  Nothing scary like a pack of panthers coming across a field and all your sherman shells are bouncing off the front armor -- then you gotta get clever fast.  

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There are at least two CMBN hedgerow bugs -- there's a suicidal-rush-towards-enemy-territory bug, and a soldiers-get-unintentionally-left-behind bug, each of which get downplayed on this forum, but in my experience are each very prevalent and extremely frustrating. Game-breaking at times. So I, too, could not feel good about recommending CMBN until BFC makes some kind of progress towards fixing those issues. (Last I saw, BFC didn't even want to admit they were real or significant issues.... which is patently ridiculous.) 

So I'd recommend to OP that he check out the Final Blitzkrieg demo and play through a few of those missions. That demo is Engine 3 (IIRC), plus CMFB's maps and scenarios are superb.

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On 3/9/2020 at 8:02 PM, Freyberg said:

The bug-out bug - where panicked troops run in random directions - is present to some degree in all the titles.

I see it mostly with crews of KO'd vehicles, because I try quite hard not to let infantry reach that point. Again, as a bug it doesn't bother me - throughout the history of war, routing is one of the worst things that can happen to soldiers. This behaviour is unintentional and due for a fix, but it's to be expected that troops who bug out stand a very good chance of being killed, so it's not game-breakingly frustrating to me.

It is indeed present in all the titles but it affects all troops not just those that are panicked. Here's an example of Nervous troops running off after a grenade thrown by their own side explodes.

I notice it fairly regularly with devastating results as an entire team usually gets wiped out as they run into the teeth of the enemy. Again not panicked or green troops. 

I'm hopeful though it will be addressed with Fire and Rubble with it's focus on urban warfare which is where I find this bug appears most often.

 

 

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Like the others who have said try the demo first before deciding to buy any of their games.

FYI, Combat Mission Black Sea Demo was the one that got me into computer wargaming. A few years later after that fateful experience, I have co-started with a few guys a dedicated computer wargaming group called Hex! we have about 800 members now and still growing.

I am also an advocate for computer wargaming and have been promoting it ever since. I do reviews for most of the latest Slitherine games and also working on computer wargaming guides for newbies. 

Who knows maybe combat mission might also lead you down this same path. 😉

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11 hours ago, sttp said:

there's a suicidal-rush-towards-enemy-territory bug, and a soldiers-get-unintentionally-left-behind bug, each of which get downplayed on this forum, but in my experience are each very prevalent and extremely frustrating

The first item is definitely irritating.  However, one rarely experience the 2nd unless one is really trying to have problematic waypoints - but on the other hand one can experience this very rarely in all the titles - so to call it game breaking is a bit of an exaggeration.

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12 hours ago, sttp said:

 (Last I saw, BFC didn't even want to admit they were real or significant issues.... which is patently ridiculous.) 

 

This isn't true at all. There were numerous save games provided and lots of back and forth discussion trying to pin down what (if any) unique situation it occurs in. And on the Beta forums there have been a lot of experiments run and test cases set up to verify and track it down . Everyone knows it exists and no one is not admitting it. 

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28 minutes ago, Erwin said:

The first item is definitely irritating.  However, one rarely experience the 2nd unless one is really trying to have problematic waypoints - but on the other hand one can experience this very rarely in all the titles - so to call it game breaking is a bit of an exaggeration.

It has been game-breaking, practically speaking, at least twice for me personally. And has caused me to quit scenarios several more times than that. If your radio and binoculars get separated, for example, good luck calling in artillery. Or imagine you've only got one bazooka or panzershrek, and its carrier is stuck hugging a hedge? Are these situations really that hard to imagine?

I'm sure the fanatics will come to BFC's defense and try to justify how this simulates the chaos of battle or some other such nonsense, but it is almost impossible to exaggerate how frustrating these two bugs have been. It has nothing to do with poorly plotted movement waypoints. It's a bug, plain and simple, and is apparently just not that important to them... or is about as important to them as the bridge bug that's existed for how many years now?

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7 minutes ago, Ultradave said:

This isn't true at all. There were numerous save games provided and lots of back and forth discussion trying to pin down what (if any) unique situation it occurs in. And on the Beta forums there have been a lot of experiments run and test cases set up to verify and track it down . Everyone knows it exists and no one is not admitting it. 

You know what Ultradave, I must admit that you are right on this. I did find the post by Steve that I was remembering, but I missed his post on the same topic later on in the thread where he clarified BFC's position a little bit.

Here's what I was originally referring to: Steve said "The bocage issue you've brought up is certainly more than irritating to those who experience it, but it is fairly isolated when one considers the whole range of possible Combat Mission games and maps.  We have to balance our limited resources. I'll see what I can do, however don't hold your breath for anything soon.  Our schedule is crammed at the moment and we're already having to juggle too many things.  The release of RtV helped get things back to "normal overloaded", so odds of a patch are better."

Later in the thread, though, he clarified that work was ongoing, but that a patch would not be anytime soon. That's still quite disappointing, and I'll admit is a little extra grating after it taking something like two years to fix the artillery / indirect fire issue. After all, these were issues that did not always exist, i.e., they were introduced by UPGRADES, so I think it's more than fair to expect those issues to be addressed by specific, individual patches. Just my opinion.

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34 minutes ago, sttp said:

You know what Ultradave, I must admit that you are right on this. I did find the post by Steve that I was remembering, but I missed his post on the same topic later on in the thread where he clarified BFC's position a little bit.

Here's what I was originally referring to: Steve said "The bocage issue you've brought up is certainly more than irritating to those who experience it, but it is fairly isolated when one considers the whole range of possible Combat Mission games and maps.  We have to balance our limited resources. I'll see what I can do, however don't hold your breath for anything soon.  Our schedule is crammed at the moment and we're already having to juggle too many things.  The release of RtV helped get things back to "normal overloaded", so odds of a patch are better."

Later in the thread, though, he clarified that work was ongoing, but that a patch would not be anytime soon. That's still quite disappointing, and I'll admit is a little extra grating after it taking something like two years to fix the artillery / indirect fire issue. After all, these were issues that did not always exist, i.e., they were introduced by UPGRADES, so I think it's more than fair to expect those issues to be addressed by specific, individual patches. Just my opinion.

Some fixes are much harder than others, without breaking a whole bunch of other stuff. It hasn't been forgotten.

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Yes, good news indeed. I may just revert to an earlier version of CMBN until everything is working as intended with version 4 and the bocage. All this talk of it makes me miss it even more. I've always enjoyed CMFI the most, but CMBN was a not--too-distant 2nd place.

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I'm playing CMBN and having lots of fun.  You are not having fun w CMBN, STTP, we hear you -- but does that mean you don't play CM games anymore?  And if I hit this bug I'll be pissed. 

But this thread is about what that new person should buy -- and that person hasn't posted once on this thread since the first page.  So maybe this should all move to a bug thread?  the new guy probably thinks these games are crap by now, which they certainly are not, which is why we are all here.

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20 hours ago, sttp said:

I'm sure the fanatics will come to BFC's defense

I'm a fanatic, and going back to the original question, if money were no object I would recommend every single title and it would still be the best bargain you ever got :) 

Personally I'd start with Red Thunder because as others have already said, its many hours of fun with no complications beyond buying the base game.  But if you prefer the Western theatre, the same is true of Final Blitzkrieg.

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