General Jack Ripper Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 12:29 PM, umlaut said: I dont think I have said that there was no contact marker for the tank. I have just checked - and the sikhs had it all through that turn. Four pages later this key piece of information finally becomes available, after having literally everyone make false assumptions about it for a month. The troops DID have contact with the tank! THEY KNEW IT WAS THERE! Now we know there was some other mitigating factor for spotting, such as the unnecessary 360 degree target arc, or the presence of foliage, smoke, dust, etc. See? We're finally making progress towards figuring this out. It only took a month and a half. It turns out your troops are not blind, or deaf. Quote Sometimes there seems to be something seriously wrong with spotting in this game. These two Sikhs walk right up to a firing german tank - without ever noticing it! Except they DID notice it, they had a contact marker the entire time! /thread Call me rude all you want, but I was correct about the lack of info, and the OP's inability or unwillingness to provide it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said: The troops DID have contact with the tank! THEY KNEW IT WAS THERE! The problem I have found in the past is that the troops do not react as if they know anything is there. Eg: One can set up a lovely ambush behind a low was and have guys lying there waiting for an AFV to come along. A tank parks just on the other side of the wall, and the troops can't hear it and do nothing. I have also moved AT troops towards a sound marker in dense woods or smoke knowing that there is an AFV there (they saw it in a previous turn or from another unit) but the AT team cannot see or attack the AFV from even a few feet away. This has happened so many times, I don't even bother worrying about it anymore and make allowances for the fact that this is a game and not perfect. But, that doesn't mean it's not a real issue that hopefully will get addressed - even if it takes till CM3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howler Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 6:40 PM, Erwin said: The question is what is the % advantage of setting a directed covered arc vs no arc or a 360 degree arc. If the advantage is minimal (as we were led to understand by BF over ten years ago) we save a lot of time not having to worry about it. But, perhaps updates and upgrades has changed spotting in that time(?). It didn't think TAs did much other than limit the range. For turreted vehicles, a pie shaped wedge on either side of the current facing would ensure the turret is rotated there, which could possibly make all the difference, while keeping the hull pointed in the facing direction. But otherwise, it's best to think of them as a limiter. They should spot all around while only firing inside the TA. I put a 360 TA on a scout team at 100m because I want them not to engage anything past 100m. I may put a 300m pie wedge on a squad because I don't want them engaging anything outside that 300m area. I assume they spot normally in either case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Howler said: I didn't think TAs did much other than limit the range... I assume they spot normally in either case. That has been my understanding as well. It would be good to get a definitive answer re what % (if any) spotting advantage there is for inf if given a covered arc "wedge". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howler Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 17 hours ago, Erwin said: That has been my understanding as well. It would be good to get a definitive answer re what % (if any) spotting advantage there is for inf if given a covered arc "wedge". Searching results in an annual thread on TAs. A TA defines a firing lane. That's all it has ever done. To verify - setup a firing range and go to town. I find it worthwhile with scouts in that a short 100m limit allows them to hunt to within 100m of a spot. No magic involved... Firing lanes/areas serve to ensure that not every support/heavy weapon on the map is firing at the same target. Granted, this may be better appreciated in the modern titles. Why do you feel it should convey an advantage in spotting? I hope not as it means that my guys aren't shooting in one place while observing everywhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Howler said: Why do you feel it should convey an advantage in spotting? I was saying the opposite. My recollection (from when CM2 was first released) is that BF stated that a covered arc or wedge gives minimal spotting advantage and it's not worth the trouble/clickfest making covered arcs unless you are trying to restrict firing (or if you want a turret to point in a certain direction). However, it may be that the spotting routines have changed since then. Who knows... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Gents and Danes (see? I read all the previous posts ), The basis of SPOTTING is that it is a time-based check. The seed for the initial spot-check and the interval for subsequent spot-checks is somewhat difficult to determine. In most cases, a 15 second interval will ensure at least ONE spot-check. Now, that spot-check is based on the many factors Steve et alia posted: experience; fatigue; LOS; target location; etc. Let's say you have an audible contact on a tank. There's dense vegetation, some trees, and some smoke. As well, due to incoming fire, your men may be suppressed. To hope that one spot-check cycle will roll a good contact is...optimistic. Instead, skew the odds to favor your men: give them a PAUSE! I would suggest replaying that turn (if it's still available) and keep the Sikhs at bay for 1 minute. Yeah, baby, a sitting Sikh kill stack. THEN give them a HUNT command with an ARMOR ARC, moving just one or two action spots, then PAUSE for 15 to 30 seconds. Yeah, baby, a skulking Sikh kill stack. Keep plotting that style of HUNT/PAUSE until you're on the rear of the enemy. Yeah, baby, a satisfied Sikh kill stack. The key, again, is to allow your troops to accumulate more spot-checks. The only way to do that is to expend TIME. How do I know this? Let's just say that many men have achieved GLOOOOORY to let me learn this. Ken 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 3 hours ago, c3k said: keep the Sikhs at bay for 1 minute. Yeah, baby, a sitting Sikh kill stack. THEN give them a HUNT command with an ARMOR ARC, moving just one or two action spots, then PAUSE for 15 to 30 seconds. What often happens is that an AFV even buttoned will invariably telepathically sense infantry (even to its rear when smoked) and will react quickly and kill said inf. Because of the spotting cycle, it has been recommended that one runs the inf as fast as possible to within kill range. The inf may kill the AFV before its spotting cycle enables it to react. Gamey maybe... but it is a game... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Erwin said: What often happens is that an AFV even buttoned will invariably telepathically sense infantry (even to its rear when smoked) and will react quickly and kill said inf. Because of the spotting cycle, it has been recommended that one runs the inf as fast as possible to within kill range. The inf may kill the AFV before its spotting cycle enables it to react. Gamey maybe... but it is a game... That MAY have been true... The current engine has added a delay to any close-in fire by AFVs at nearby troops. This is to simulate the historical difficulties vehicles have at spotting nearby enemy. Or, you could say it simulates the crew trying to micro-position the vehicle to enable the weapons' arcs/elevations to engage the troops. What it means in terms of the game is that close in assaults now have a chance. No, don't run up to the front of the tank. So, if you're a tank owner and you notice that your tank is waving its barrel about but NOT firing at enemy RIGHT THERE, well, that's what's going on. FWIW. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, c3k said: That MAY have been true... The current engine has added a delay to any close-in fire by AFVs at nearby troops. This is to simulate the historical difficulties vehicles have at spotting nearby enemy. ... If you can get within grenade range of an unsupported tank with infantry, killing it is almost too easy - realistic for sure, but when playing the AI I don't like to smoke the tank and attack with infantry because it's so easy there's little fun in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Freyberg said: when playing the AI I don't like to smoke the tank and attack with infantry because it's so easy there's little fun in it. Am assuming that when the AFV has no inf to protect it, that is the best RL way(?) If that is now a viable tactic that is good. Something must have changed after one or more updates as my experience used to be that approaching an AFV in a sensible tactical/slow way even when smoked was suicide and I stopped even trying. Will give it another go now. Edited April 18, 2020 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Erwin said: Am assuming that when the AFV has no inf to protect it, that is the best RL way(?) If that is now a viable tactic that is good. Something must have changed after one or more updates as my experience used to be that approaching an AFV in a sensible tactical/slow way even when smoked was suicide and I stopped even trying. Will give it another go now. The AI sometimes does things a human player would never do. The dangerous part is after the crew exit though... Edited April 18, 2020 by Freyberg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I thought the "Rambo Crew" phenomenon had been dialed down(?). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Erwin said: I thought the "Rambo Crew" phenomenon had been dialed down(?). No, it hasn't unfortunately. Crew still bail out guns ablazing from tanks and bunkers. What has been changed is that crew will stay in panicked state longer, meaning it will take longer for the player to be able to use them as free recon/assault units. Edited April 19, 2020 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 They are still deadly fighters when panicked? One would think that would make them dead meat until they recovered their composure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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