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At this point I think we can all agree that LOS in CM2 just doesn't work the way it should simulate RL in certain/many circumstances.  ...Not only in this example but also looking down a street with no obstructions and being unable to see a building that should be clear as day at the end of the street.  But, it's just a game folks, not an accurate depiction of RL

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The random spotting cycle does also simulate reality in a certain way, although at times it can indeed lead to strange results like not seeing a tank a few meters away. Still, in real life there are many reasons as to why someone isn't aware of/seeing something they should really see. 

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22 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Still, in real life there are many reasons as to why someone isn't aware of/seeing something they should really see. 

Yes. Let’s just say that their turbans suddenly slipped down and covered their eyes and ears 😜

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I have had a bazooka team run through/past an PzIV on a bridge that was firing at another infantry unit. Then they turned and ran back across the bridge because they took fire from a MG. Never did they see the tank. However, the tank saw them and shot them all in the back.

Currently I am playing a game where I had a good number of ATG and StuG's facing the route the Canadian Sherman's would be traveling down. They all had clear LOS/LOF down the road and into the first couple of rows of an orchard. They listened to the Sherman's approach and did not fire a single shot. They never saw any of the tanks. Looking down the barrel of each one I could clearly see the approaching enemy. And I could target the road the tanks were on, but the ATG/StuG's didn't see or fire. Instead they all sat there and were taken out by multiple tank shots. All were either veteran or crack units. And before all the folks on the forum who have no capacity to see a that there is actually an occasional issue with LOS in these games, or who do nothing but find a nebulous justification for it to happen, I want to say that it can make the game unplayable. Most of us play these game for enjoyment. Being constantly frustrated because of things like this is not enjoyable.

Don't get me wrong. I love the games and I love creating scenarios. I just think this is an area that needs to be looked at. It may take a slight modification to the coding, but it can be fixed. I would rather have LOS be too easy then ridiculously off as we have all seen.

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Posted (edited)

The actual problem here is that the graphics don't reflect the actual concealment values the game operates by.

The player sees two trees. No big deal. No tank could ever hide there in real life.

But the game sees "action square with 66% tree density". Which gives a quite decent chance of hiding a tank for at least a couple of spotting cycles.

Edited by Bulletpoint

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On 3/25/2020 at 8:21 PM, Warts 'n' all said:

"Loud mouthed Dane 12 o'Clock. Let him have it boys."

4-sikh_soldiers_manning_a_tank_in_libiya_world_war_two._0.jpg

Loud mouthed Dane? So it's okay to insult someone as long as you're trying to be funny at the same time? Double standards on this forum lately.

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5 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Loud mouthed Dane? So it's okay to insult someone as long as you're trying to be funny at the same time? Double standards on this forum lately.

Ik dacht dat je de ignore optie gebruikte 😉

Laat het gewoon gaan zou ik zeggen, tenzij je graag jullie haat-liefde verhouding etaleert voor ons allemaal :D

 

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13 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Ik dacht dat je de ignore optie gebruikte 😉

Laat het gewoon gaan zou ik zeggen, tenzij je graag jullie haat-liefde verhouding etaleert voor ons allemaal :D

 

This is a English speaking site....🙂 So post in English.

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22 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Ik dacht dat je de ignore optie gebruikte 😉

Laat het gewoon gaan zou ik zeggen, tenzij je graag jullie haat-liefde verhouding etaleert voor ons allemaal :D

 

Feel free to post in any language you wish. I'm sure that if @umlaut was offended by my post he would let me know.

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Don't worry bout me, I'll do as I please. I don't think Umlaut was offended, either. However, it takes two to tango and I guess you guys could probably both listen that song before reacting to each other.
But than I don't really have a wish to get in between of it either. So, wish all a good weekend!

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51 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Classic track. Takes me back to the days when I was getting my head kicked in by neo-nazis.

Makes me wonder whether i'm a neo-nazi after all, because that's precisely what i like to do to you sometimes. 😄

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8 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Loud mouthed Dane? So it's okay to insult someone as long as you're trying to be funny at the same time? Double standards on this forum lately.

Well, it never occurred to me that there was anything insulting about it; I thought it was just good-natured ribbing. My chums and I do that type of stuff all the time. But I guess it's umlaut call.

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One thing that cheeses me off more than other things is when someone drags a personal chip on shoulder from one thread (which is bad enough) and into a second.  Which we've got going on here, apparently.

1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Makes me wonder whether i'm a neo-nazi after all, because that's precisely what i like to do to you sometimes. 😄

Ask yourself a serious question.  If being on this Forum is such an aggravating experience for you, do you still want to be a member of it?  Because with comments like this I'm really thinking you might want a vacation or to move on.  Either one is a possibility, but it's your choice as your behavior is what dictates the outcome.

Also, don't pick fights for other people.  If Person A directs a comment at Person B that is potentially offensive to him, I expect Person B to complain and not Person C to come out swinging.  If Person B doesn't raise objections, then maybe Person C missed something.

As for Danes being loudmouthed... that's just a statement of fact.  And I can state that because I'm 1/4 Dane (my grandfather came over), so I'm a 1/4 authority on this matter!  And if that's not enough, my blue eyes, blond hair, and fair complexion didn't come from my Italian side of the family :)  Now, If I were Swedish... then I would be expected to keep my mouth shut, just like the Finns keep insisting would be for the best.  And the Norwegians should just stay out of it because nobody cares about what they think.

My job here is almost done :D

Steve

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

One thing that cheeses me off more than other things is when someone drags a personal chip on shoulder from one thread (which is bad enough) and into a second.  Which we've got going on here, apparently.

Ask yourself a serious question.  If being on this Forum is such an aggravating experience for you, do you still want to be a member of it?  Because with comments like this I'm really thinking you might want a vacation or to move on.  Either one is a possibility, but it's your choice as your behavior is what dictates the outcome.

Also, don't pick fights for other people.  If Person A directs a comment at Person B that is potentially offensive to him, I expect Person B to complain and not Person C to come out swinging.  If Person B doesn't raise objections, then maybe Person C missed something.

As for Danes being loudmouthed... that's just a statement of fact.  And I can state that because I'm 1/4 Dane (my grandfather came over), so I'm a 1/4 authority on this matter!  And if that's not enough, my blue eyes, blond hair, and fair complexion didn't come from my Italian side of the family :)  Now, If I were Swedish... then I would be expected to keep my mouth shut, just like the Finns keep insisting would be for the best.  And the Norwegians should just stay out of it because nobody cares about what they think.

My job here is almost done :D

Steve

Making a joke on 'kicking in the head (a quote of the man himself, followed by a smiley...) is reason for a warning and calling someone a neo nazi several times is okay? Where i come from that's quite an insult. Never heard someone here giving a reprimand for using such (seriously meant) language.

Digging my own grave here, but so be it.

Edited by Aragorn2002

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OK, back to the initial issue that started this thread.  As has been pointed out there is no such thing as a perfect simulation of real life.  By the time there is, the machines will have taken over the planet and, with some luck, not eradicated us in the process.  Therefore, simple deduction means that Combat Mission is not perfect and never will be.

What has to be kept in mind is that if you play Combat Mission fairly regularly you have experienced BILLIONS of TacAI decisions.  Cripes, it could be even TRILLIONS (I did some quick math and came up with 7 million theoretical TacAI decisions in an average game).  Think about it.  Every few seconds every Soldier makes one or more distinct decisions based on TacAI logic.  Multiply that by the number of units you have in a game, by the length of time a game plays out, by the number of games played.  Since it is impossible for every single decision to be reasonable (i.e. realistic, not necessarily correct) there are going to be questionable outcomes.  Some may have a plausible, but not very likely, justification.  Others simply defy that. 

I'd say this is one of those situations that doesn't seem to hold up to any reasonable standard of "bad luck" and instead crosses the line and is a "bad result".  Everybody is going to eventually experience these sorts of things.  Given the collective quintillions of resultsplayers on this Forum experience, there's going to be some notable boo-boos to highlight.  These are termed "outliers" and aren't a problem provided they remain that way.

That said, there are some things players can do to minimize getting bitten by the necessarily gaps between spotting checks:

  • Don't use overly large or overly restrictive Target Arcs.  Too large and the unit's attention is spread too thin, too narrow and it's the opposite.
  • Don't rely upon units in adverse situations to be totally on top of everything that's going on around them.  Tired, shaken troops deliberately behave less efficiently.  Especially if they are poorer quality to start with.
  • Don't move units around until they've had a chance to spot known dangers and/or targets.  Moving reduces the quality of spotting, depending on the Command used and tactical conditions.
  • The more adverse spotting situations are combined for one unit, the more likely it will miss something.

To sum up... is it realistic that even with all the terrain and battlefield distractions that a unit in adverse conditions would miss a Tiger at that close range?  Not likely, even considering that real life has a lot more crazy stuff in it that we account for.  Does this one incident highlight some sort of underlying limitation of the Game Engine that is more likely to bite someone than not?  Sure, because there's only so many times your CPU can afford to do a spotting check for every Soldier and that is less than real life.  But does this indicate some major problem with the simulation itself?  No.  If it did, none of you would be playing Combat Mission now, not especially 10 years ago when the spotting checks were even less frequent and less sophisticated than they are now.  Combat Mission is an incredible simulation of real life, but nothing is perfect and therefore neither is Combat Mission.

Now that I've attempted to offended all of Scandinavia, I'm going to go out and get some farm brewed beer.  At least the whole world hasn't fallen apart!

Steve

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17 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Making a joke on 'kicking in the head (a quote of the man himself, followed by a smiley...) is reason for a warning and calling someone a neo nazi several times is okay? Where i come from that's quite an insult. Never heard someone here giving a reprimand for using such (seriously meant) language.

Actually, on this point I agree.  Neo-Nazi is a specific and loaded term that has all kinds of baggage that goes with it.  I live in an area with a large right wingers around and I don't think of any of them as Neo-Nazis.  Would be Fascists?  Some of them, though most are (honestly) simply not intelligent and/or informed enough to know what the results of their political views would ultimately lead to if not checked by the middle and the left.  Ignorant is a better term for most people on either political extremes IMHO.

I've had my share of run-ins with true Neo-Nazis and far more with right wingers.  While there might be a lot of commonalities in philosophies, which shouldn't be surprising since one is a more extreme version of the same mindset, they are not the same thing.  Same thing with liberals being labeled Communists.  Very few liberals would be even remotely happy under Communist rule.  Casually tossing around labels doesn't help anything.

For the record, I do not consider you a Neo-Nazi.  Right wing and offensive at times?  Yup, absolutely you've managed to establish that on many occasions.  Even if an argument can be made that positions you take offer comfort and encouragement to those who would push people into ovens, that still isn't the same thing as being a Neo-Nazi yourself.  Words matter and I do think it's important to not use a term (especially a loaded one) inappropriately.  Therefore, next time someone calls you a Neo-Nazi you can ping me and I'll give them a talking to.  Though I expect I might also have to give you a talking to at the same time as there's usually something you've posted to cause that sort of accusation.  Meaning, if you don't want to be incorrectly called a Neo-Nazi it is advisable to not post things that could give people that impression.

Steve

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17 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I apologize to this community and will withdraw myself from this forum until the release of Fire and Rubble to cool off. 

A cooling off period might be best for you and others.  However, what I just posted still stands as does my offer to reprimand anybody who labels you a Neo-Nazi.  You are correct that name calling is name calling.  Unless it's about Danes.  They're on their own, which ironically is just the way they like it ;)

Steve

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