Blind troops

[umlaut]

Sometimes there seems to be something seriously wrong with spotting in this game.

These two Sikhs walk right up to a firing german tank - without ever noticing it!
 

 

[ASL Veteran]

It would be more enlightening if you had the team selected during the video so we could see what they could see.  If the team was selected then the tank wouldn't appear if they couldn't see it and it would appear if they could see it.  As it is, the tank is buttoned up so … not sure what they are supposed to do to it.  They could potentially have tossed a grenade after they stopped but it appears that the tank was knocked out already.  They aren't being fired upon so no reason to stop moving to take cover.  I don't remember if the hunt command stops movement upon spotting an enemy or if they have to be fired upon though so maybe the 'problem' is a valid one depending upon how the command works.  Even so, it would have been better to have the team selected so there would be no doubt.  Just the act of moving in front of an enemy unit until the team reaches it's destination doesn't really reveal anything one way or the other.

[umlaut]

As I said:

1 hour ago, umlaut said:

These two Sikhs walk right up to a firing german tank - without ever noticing it!

If I had the team selected during the entire sequence, you wouldnt have been able to see the tank that is the centre of the discussion. Excactly because they dont see it!

I select the team in the end of the video to show that they still havent spotted the tank.

It is a PIAT team I sent out to engage the tank, so they could have done plenty - if they had only seen it.

[Erwin]

30 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

If the team was selected then the tank wouldn't appear if they couldn't see it and it would appear if they could see it. 

You must av used to work for Donald Rumsfeld?  After all these years we all (well most of us) know that LOS effects are sometimes just plain weird in CM2.  Experienced players learn to work around CM2's weird phenomena and still have fun.  But, it's a case of "the emperor's clothes".

[Vergeltungswaffe]

4 hours ago, umlaut said:

Sometimes there seems to be something seriously wrong with fill in the blank in this game.

True of any algorithm. True of real life.

But thankfully, in game, the percentage of times something truly wacky takes place fits into the "stuff happens" category reasonably well imho.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Warts 'n' all]

Personally I think that this just proves that the Sikhs were hard as nails, Why waste a perfectly good PIAT round when we can sneak up until we are within kirpan range.

[Bulletpoint]

I went out drinking with a Sikh once. But it was me who ended up sick. And she was only half my size.

[Wicky]

The pair appeared to be hunting forward with a armour cover arc - going against them was that they were moving and tired. Also there was a tree between them and the tank

Though with all the hammering and banging going on I would have thought at minimum a sound contact.

If at the end of the turn you ordered them to stop where they were, run the next turn and let a spotting cycle or two to do its work I'd expect the pair to figure out that there was tank ahoy.

[Xorg_Xalargsky]

Yeah, spotting can get dodgy with vehicles and thick foliage, especially at close ranges where you'd think it would be a piece of cake.

[Erwin]

54 minutes ago, Wicky said:

Though with all the hammering and banging going on I would have thought at minimum a sound contact.

Lack of any sound detection happens quite frequently when at close range in poor visibility conditions when in RL it would be easy to hear.  Perhaps units in CM only detect each other by sight and the "Sound Contact" that we humans see in the game is "for our eyes only"?  

[user1000]

It appears if you 360 degree the arc they are constantly looking around 360 degrees for armor, they are overlooking the spot where the tank is because they are scanning 360 constantly

(eye are not still long enough or they can't focus on a specific area ?) try to make the arc 180 degrees in front of them?

 

I don't think the animations show them looking around, but it would be like someone spinning around in a circle while walking straight.

Edited March 5, 2020 by user1000

[Erwin]

In the early days of CM2 I used to use 180 degree arcs all the time so as to focus attention in the desired direction - as that was very effective in CM1. 

However, I recall an old  thread in which it was stated that in CM2, there is little advantage in having a 180 degree arc - unless one wants a turreted gun facing in the desired direction so it doesn't have to waste time rotating when it sees an enemy.   These days I don't bother giving inf covered arcs unless I want them to hide or hold their fire if the see an enemy.  As short range covered arc will also prevent an inf unit on HUNT from stopping if it sees an enemy but is not fired upon.  (It will stop if fired upon.)

[user1000]

Did you just do a target arc or armor arc? I was able to break off a 2 man rifle AT team from a larger rifle squad, and was able to take out a hetzer based on a possible contact icon with 1 AT HEAT garand rifle grenade when I did a smaller armor arc for that anti armor team, I also moved them low and slow through the woods. If you use pausing and planning you can almost play right down to a first person level in tactics if you wanted to, the game allows for it.

Edited March 6, 2020 by user1000

[Bud Backer]

14 hours ago, Erwin said:

As short range covered arc will also prevent an inf unit on HUNT from stopping if it sees an enemy but is not fired upon.  (It will stop if fired upon.)

Crikey! All these years playing CM and still learning things! Does this work for vehicles too?

Edited March 6, 2020 by Bud Backer

[umlaut]

4 hours ago, user1000 said:

Did you just do a target arc or armor arc? I was able to break off a 2 man rifle AT team from a larger rifle squad, and was able to take out a hetzer based on a possible contact icon with 1 AT HEAT garand rifle grenade when I did a smaller armor arc for that anti armor team, I also moved them low and slow through the woods. If you use pausing and planning you can almost play right down to a first person level in tactics if you wanted to, the game allows for it.

I assume you are asking me?

They used an armor arc. But that is not really the issue here: The issue is that my PIAT team are able to walk right up to the tank - without ever seeing it.

[Warts 'n' all]

The armour arc is clearly seen in the video at the end of the turn. It is strange that they could get so close. But, whatever is blocking their view is also blocking the view of the tank's bow mg.

[user1000]

17 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

The armour arc is clearly seen in the video at the end of the turn. It is strange that they could get so close. But, whatever is blocking their view is also blocking the view of the tank's bow mg.

Yes, and at that range they should hear the engine, tank impacts and incoming and outgoing rounds too!  You get the same Bs at night battles, you have to hear that engine that close! To not know it is there is total BS. Is it a soldier skill level problem? What game mode are you playing on?  We don't know if the bow gunner has been KIA or incapacitated or just unconscious by the round or not, my guess is he has. If he is still alive perhaps an invisible clipping problem on the grass or trees blocking them. I still personally think t the 360 arc is not allowing the piat team to not focus on one angled area as well.  Maybe the soldiers don't want to try the piat at the fronts and trying for the sides or a better angle? Maybe they don't feel its a threat and are waiting for troops to eject and holding fire? What ever is shooting at the makr iv is so weak and far away ,I have never seen so many hits without a bailout some crew could be unconscious/dazed. maybe AI = Why waste a pait round if you know the tank is done for? Troops that are extremely fatigued can walk past stuff as well.

Edited March 7, 2020 by user1000

[umlaut]

4 hours ago, user1000 said:

Maybe they don't feel its a threat and are waiting for troops to eject and holding fire? What ever is shooting at the makr iv is so weak and far away ,I have never seen so many hits without a bailout some crew could be unconscious/dazed. maybe AI = Why waste a pait round if you know the tank is done for? Troops that are extremely fatigued can walk past stuff as well.

Once again:
The issue is this: They dont even see the effing tank!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Spotting checks are random and therefor can produce outlier events. The game's been out for a while now. We know this is not how things usually work.

[Chibot Mk IX]

I noticed that at the end of video, you clicked the team, and there is nothing show on the screen. That's really weird, at this distance, they should at least get the sound contact

[Wicky]

Another factor apparent in the first couple seconds that would add to the tanks invisibility cloak would be the dust kicked up when it was hit acting as a visual screen. This dust and smoke would occur again when it fired off a round and again was struck.

What happened in the next turn? Was the tank eventually spotted and how long did it take?

[umlaut]

Would the smoke and dust be sound proof too?

[Wicky]

On 3/5/2020 at 5:24 PM, Wicky said:

Though with all the hammering and banging going on I would have thought at minimum a sound contact.

Again umlaut can you tell us how did the subsequent turn transpire and play out? 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Wicky

[Wicky]

[umlaut]

4 hours ago, Wicky said:

Again umlaut can you tell us how did the subsequent turn transpire and play out? 

Not exactly how that turn played out. I must admit I was so unhappy with this that I reloaded the turn again in the hope that they would see the tank next time. If I remember correctly, I had to reload three or four times before they finally saw the damn thing. So their blindness wasnt just a one-off fluke.
And yesterday I had an almost identical experience in CMBN: A PIAT team is waiting in ambush behind a hedge row (not Bocage) for an approaching Panther that is emerging from a cloud of smoke. I have placed them there because I´m sure the Panther will approach the hedge at some point. The PIAT team has a cover armour arc facing the Panther - which emerges from the smoke about 10 metres from the hedge and the team. The Panther drives directly up to the hedge and immediately spots and kills the PIAT team - who never even spot the Panther driving direct at them!
I also reloaded that turn. The next time they spotted it, fired a couple of useless shots - and got killed. But at least they spotted it.