Castles in Italy

[LiveNoMore]

Currently I am creating a scenario in which a large castle sits on a hill overlooking a small town. This is a common sight in most of Italy. My question is survivability of castles vs large churches. Currently there is nothing which represents a castle or old fortified stone medieval building. I can make a large church almost look like a castle, but it definitely isn't as strong as a castle. Having walked through a lot of both buildings in Italy you can see the structural difference.

 

Does anyone have a solution for this? I have put a large wall next to the church and it looks good, but is it really any stronger? 

 

Thanks,

LiveNoMore

[umlaut]

Well, hwo strong does the castle need to be? And are you sure a Combat Mission church isnt strong enough?

Your post sparked my curiosity, so I made a quick test scenario: "How many shots from a Brummbär does it take to demolish a church?"

I set up 12 Brummbärs to fire at 12 churches from around 200 metres.
Result: When all the Brummbärs had used all their ammo (33 150mm HE rounds and 3 150mm HEAT rounds each)  none (0) of the churches had collapsed.

All the churches had holes knocked through their walls. In average it took a Brummbär 21,5 150mm HE rounds to knock a hole in the wall of a church.

To be safe I made the same test with Hummels instead. But since Hummels only carry 16 150mm HE rounds each, I setup two Hummels firing at each church.

The result was pretty much the same: None of the churches collapsed, but all had holes blown through their walls. It took an average of 26,5 150mm HE shells for the Hummels to blow holes in the churches. I suspect that is because the Hummels are less accurate and sometimes missed a church entirely - even at 200 metres.

I dont know about you - but I think these churches seem mighty sturdy indeed.

Cheers

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by umlaut

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, umlaut said:

the Hummels are less accurate and sometimes missed a church entirely - even at 200 metres.

Wow - they cannot hit the proverbial barn door at 200 meters?!  ...  I forget, do Hummels also have armor piercing ammo for use vs tanks?

[umlaut]

Let me put it this way: I didnt trace every single round of the 800+ rounds fired, but while I didnt see a Brummbär miss, I did notice that a Hummel sometimes did. I am not sure if that explains the diffference between  the 21,5 rounds of the Brummbär vs the 26,5 rounds of the Hummel.  But that is my best guess - I dont know if the 150mm rounds of the two vehicles differ in other ways.

The Brummbär carries three HEAT rounds, the Hummel two.

[JoMac]

3 hours ago, umlaut said:

Let me put it this way: I didnt trace every single round of the 800+ rounds fired, but while I didnt see a Brummbär miss, I did notice that a Hummel sometimes did. I am not sure if that explains the diffference between  the 21,5 rounds of the Brummbär vs the 26,5 rounds of the Hummel.  But that is my best guess - I dont know if the 150mm rounds of the two vehicles differ in other ways.

The Brummbär carries three HEAT rounds, the Hummel two.

If anything, you would think the Brummbars would miss on occasion and the Hummels hitting nearly every shot (or both about the same at 200 meters)...I wonder if the Hummels are hitting, but rounds are just passing through w/o damage.

LiveNoMore...Depending on size of Castle you are looking for, you can also have 4x Churches (or 2x Churches on opposite corners) touching each other on all corners. You can also use 1-2 Churches interlocked with Heavy Building...All the above cases should give you the desired effects your looking for.

Edited February 2, 2020 by JoMc67

[MOS:96B2P]

19 hours ago, LiveNoMore said:

I can make a large church almost look like a castle, but it definitely isn't as strong as a castle. 

Does anyone have a solution for this? I have put a large wall next to the church and it looks good, but is it really any stronger? 

The large church is the strongest building type in CM.  Probably use the large church in combination with modular buildings to get the look you want.  Below is a link to a post where building strengths, etc. were tested.   

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/123150-buildings-collapsing/?do=findComment&comment=1679833

 

[MikeyD]

Umlaut's posted picts remind me that some people have a much better graphics card than I have.  

 

[umlaut]

4 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Umlaut's posted picts remind me that some people have a much better graphics card than I have.  

 

It is very nice, thank you. My PC is brand new - purchased for video editing, so it better be good.

On topic: Are you able to enlighten us about the relative sturdiness of CMFI buildings? And regarding my test: Do you know if the 150mm rounds of the Brummbär amd the Hummel are identical?

[umlaut]

10 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

If anything, you would think the Brummbars would miss on occasion and the Hummels hitting nearly every shot (or both about the same at 200 meters)...I wonder if the Hummels are hitting, but rounds are just passing through w/o damage.

I cant imagine a 150mm HE round passing through a church without causing damage. And as I said, I did see some of the Hummel rounds miss the churches conpletely.

If I were forced to guess, I´d speculate that the game designers perhaps built in some sort of inaccuracy in the Hummel to simulate that it wasnt meant to be used in the direct fire role.

[LiveNoMore]

@umlaut WOW! good work with that. I was planning on using a large church with an 8 story modular building on 1 side and 2 4 story mods on the other. That will cover the church. But, at the bottom of the hill stands a smaller keep. This is about 4 stories and when I walked around and through it the construction looked as strong as the main castle. I guess for game purposes this building won't be as strong as the main one. But it will still work and look good.

 

Thanks All!

[MikeyD]

Building sturdiness is basically WYSIWYG. Barns are porous, cathedral pieces are massive, big stuff is sturdier than small stuff. It used to depend on what theater you're playing as well (Italy has lots of stone construction, modern Ukraine has lots of stick construction), but I don't know if that survived the big V4 game engine upgrade.

[Aragorn2002]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:50 AM, umlaut said:

I set up 12 Brummbärs to fire at 12 churches from around 200 metres.
Result: When all the Brummbärs had used all their ammo (33 150mm HE rounds and 3 150mm HEAT rounds each)  none (0) of the churches had collapsed.

All the churches had holes knocked through their walls. In average it took a Brummbär 21,5 150mm HE rounds to knock a hole in the wall of a church.

 

 

I'm pretty sure you will go to hell for this, Umlaut.

[umlaut]

2 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I'm pretty sure you will go to hell for this, Umlaut.

LOL. Never thought of that.
Luckily, it is in a catholic country - so I guess a few candles and "Hail Mary"´s might get me off?

[Bulletpoint]

16 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Building sturdiness is basically WYSIWYG. Barns are porous

Problem is, a barn looks pretty sturdy in the game, but it isn't actually good cover. Many buildings in CM look like they are made of stone, but some are treated like they are made of wood and plaster.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[Aragorn2002]

5 hours ago, umlaut said:

LOL. Never thought of that.
Luckily, it is in a catholic country - so I guess a few candles and "Hail Mary"´s might get me off?

Yeah, that should do the trick. In protestant Denmark or the Netherlands you wouldn't come off so easily.

[StieliAlpha]

On 2/1/2020 at 8:44 PM, LiveNoMore said:

Currently I am creating a scenario in which a large castle sits on a hill overlooking a small town. This is a common sight in most of Italy. My question is survivability of castles vs large churches. Currently there is nothing which represents a castle or old fortified stone medieval building. I can make a large church almost look like a castle, but it definitely isn't as strong as a castle. Having walked through a lot of both buildings in Italy you can see the structural difference.

 

Does anyone have a solution for this? I have put a large wall next to the church and it looks good, but is it really any stronger? 

 

Thanks,

LiveNoMore

I would not worry too much. Those castles were built in the late Middle Ages, say 14th to 17th Century, when people shot with stone, lead and iron (mind you: NOT steel!) shot.

Plus, I guess you don‘t want to create a siege scenario.

The key probably is, to give the players no reason to fight for the castle. I would think in modern RL tactical battles, they just would be by-passed. And flattened by planes or arty outside the scope of your scenario.

[LiveNoMore]

This is a remake of one of my first scenarios, Campobasso. I made that in CMBN but tried to make it look like Italy. The castle needs to stand up to 75mm and such for a bit. I have a photo of a castle in Germany (Castle Itter) which shows damage done by German 76mm and 88mm ATG. It held up fairly well, though there are a few holes in it!  Now that we have R2V I am doing an entire rebuild. So far I have the map created with elevations, roads, RR tracks and RR station, medieval town, castle and new town. Now filling in the rest of the map. Then on to locating the actual units in the area and deciding what I want in the game.  I know the Allies were part of the 1st Canadian Division. The Germans were from 76th Corps, and included 1st Fallschirmjager. Hope to do some play testing by the beginning of March. Initially it will be H2H only.