Penetrating Vehicles behind Buildings Test

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

Addition: Should also work for Autocannon AP

[Sgt.Squarehead]

In CM:BS I've seen a Stryker's .50cal take out infantry on the far side of the smallest modular house type (single tile, single floor).

[MOS:96B2P]

In the game AP rounds will go through buildings and destroy vehicles behind the building.  However the tac AI will always select HE if it is ordered to fire at a building so this is not often observed.  Some vehicle like the US M10 have few HE rounds.  If you area target and use up all the HE then the tac AI has no choice but to shoot AP.  Now target a building and the AP will pass through.  The good news is that this can hit enemy armor behind the building.  The bad news is it has significantly less effect on infantry inside the building.      

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

However the tac AI will always select HE if it is ordered to fire at a building so this is not often observed. 

The odd one out: I recently observed that the M36 will fire AP at buildings even though it still has HE left. I think it's because it's AP with a bursting charge, but it only triggers after the shell has gone out the other side of the building, so there's no effect. Unless the elevation makes the shell go into the ground inside the building.

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

The good news is that this can hit enemy armor behind the building.  The bad news is it has significantly less effect on infantry inside the building.      

No effect, actually. Regular AP slugs never hurt infantry inside buildings. Though I think they were historically used against enemy troops.

[MOS:96B2P]

8 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

The odd one out: I recently observed that the M36 will fire AP at buildings even though it still has HE left.

Hmm, did not know that. 

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

I observed regular AP shells neutralizing infantry in buildings several times. However the shell usually has to impact into personell almost directly. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Aquila-SWG

[Falaise]

I thought for a long time that it was a bug, but I couldn't reproduce it then one day I understood !!!
tomorrow I would take a picture of a house next to me pierced by an AP

[Bulletpoint]

18 hours ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said:

I observed regular AP shells neutralizing infantry in buildings several times. However the shell usually has to impact into personell almost directly. 

I have never ever seen this, and I've seen many AP shells go straight through infantry in buildings. Not saying you're lying or anything, but I'd love to see a video of this happening if you have one?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

In the old CM1 title CM:BO I've seen an AP round ricochet off a tank and kill a nearby infantryman.....I don't know if this can happen in CM2, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[umlaut]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

In the old CM1 title CM:BO I've seen an AP round ricochet off a tank and kill a nearby infantryman.....I don't know if this can happen in CM2, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I am relatively sure, that I have seen this in CM2 too.

I´ve also had a Panther take out three Stuarts with one shot. They were all lined up neatly on a road as the Panther turned the corner. I think it was in GeorgeMC´s great "Huzzar".

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I have never ever seen this, and I've seen many AP shells go straight through infantry in buildings. Not saying you're lying or anything, but I'd love to see a video of this happening if you have one?

At 25:15

 

[Bulletpoint]

12 hours ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said:

At 25:15

 

Thanks  But I think what we're seeing here is an AP shell with bursting charge going into the ground and exploding and the explosion then causes the casualty. I meant that AP slugs without explosive filling can't kill infantry in buildings just by passing through them.

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Thanks  But I think what we're seeing here is an AP shell with bursting charge going into the ground and exploding and the explosion then causes the casualty. I meant that AP slugs without explosive filling can't kill infantry in buildings just by passing through them.

Time for another experiment then

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'd say that was pretty conclusive. 

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

I did further testing with removed windows/doors and depressed terrain behind the building and b) infantry located on higher floors. There is also further details in the video description

Despite all of this it was quiet surprising to see that at least the M10´s AP shells seem to come with considerable effectiveness against infantry on ground level inside buildings. On some occasions casualty rates around 50% were inflicted upon with a single AP shell detonated inside this building. Beforehand I ruled AP shells being rather a pointless waste of ammo in this type of situation. However it requires the tank to spot infantry inside or when issuing area fire vs the building some elevated fire position to get the ap shell consistently detonate on the ground of the building interior. There are again ways like moving the vehicle to instrumentalize the introduced inaccuracy but this isn´t reliable and rather silly.

Against infantry in higher buldings levels this is different as I know no way to burst/detonate AP shells in the interiors of higher levels. So with AP vs. higher levels you might be only left with the rather ineffective method of sending enemy infantry on Baron Munchausen trips. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said:

Time for another experiment then

 

Thanks for proving me wrong. +1

I was very surprised to see this happen, because in the Aachen campaign I had two M36 fire a lot of AP shells at enemy infantry in a building. It seemed like the shell would pass straight through the enemy soldier each time, but causing no damage. So that's why I was convinced it was simply not possible.

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

31 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I was very surprised to see this happen, because in the Aachen campaign I had two M36 fire a lot of AP shells at enemy infantry in a building. It seemed like the shell would pass straight through the enemy soldier each time, but causing no damage. So that's why I was convinced it was simply not possible.

It seems that the hit is not exactly tied to the 3D model of the soldier. I observed what might looked like shots that went through the limbs of soldiers without doing harm. To me it seemed to require something close to a "center mass" hit in order to have an effect and it is also very dependant on angle when using area fire.