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Yskonyn

How do you advance over open terrain?

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7 hours ago, Bozowans said:

So you're saying that the terrain tiles behave like the CMx1 engine does? Where the underlying terrain tile gives a flat bonus to whoever is in it?

No.

There is a factor of protection given to the soldiers - that is the only thing that is similar to CM1.

Unlike CM1, CM2 tracks rounds and uses model based hit testing. CM1 was all abstract level of fire and abstract level of protection and each square was what it was. CM2 is very different. As a starting point each soldier model is used as a hit test for rounds. Anyone who gets hit then gets some kind of adjustment to the chance of becoming a casualty based on the terrain they are in. And this highlights another difference - in CM2 a team can have soldiers in various terrains while CM1 cannot. So, the one guy who is outside the light forest area is treated as being in the open, his team mate 6m away in the woods gets more of a chance of not become a casualty.

CM2 starts with rounds hit models and then performs a few adjustments because the 3D model for light forest or heavy forest doesn't really render all the various things in the way. So, even open ground gets some adjustments for those less than 1m terrain level changes that if you were really in a field you would seek out if someone was shooting at you.

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I'll admit one scenario map type I'm not particularly fond of is where the players are on hills on opposing sides of a map and there's an open valley in between. What in heck am I supposed to do with that? It may look pretty but the only tactical solution seems to be to kill everything on the opposing hill first before you can descend the slope safely. Not many maps are like that, though. As map makers get more into recreating historical locations the maps get better and better to play on with lots of so-called 'micro-terrain' details. After being out of the game for a few titles (years) I finally got back into map tinkering with CMSF2. Now I'm going map making crazy for CMRT Fire and Rubble. If you've only played scenarios on standard maps you're missing half the fun of CM. Recreate your own neighborhood in the editor then send in a wave of 'fighters' to take over the place. You'll gain a new appreciation for that big shopping mall parking lot up the road next to the highway, and the copse of trees at the end of the street. ^_^

Edited by MikeyD

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13 hours ago, Bozowans said:

It still surprises me though how much punishment squads in open ground can take. In the most recent scenario I played, a Syrian special forces squad got caught and pinned in place in flat, open pavement at about 500m. Even though the terrain was flat as a pool table, I had several machine guns, a sniper, and some Strykers firing at them for several minutes before they took a casualty.

In terms of streets and pavement, I figure the game assumes the possibility of some sort of cover in the street, as there often is, which the game can't specifically model, such as the Syrian street below...

2017_1_27-Streets-of-Syria-1.jpg

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The vast majority of times, I don't move unless I'm in hunt mode, this way they will engage any target they come in contact with (tanks mostly), infantry and IFVs really depends on the environment and what I'm trying to achieve or do.

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On 1/25/2020 at 11:28 PM, MikeyD said:

Long time players often get afflicted with 'CMitis'. That's where you find yourself reflexively scouting out defilade positions and identifying potential ambush sites while driving down the road.

I thought I was the only one :D

 

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On 1/31/2020 at 6:04 PM, IanL said:

So, the one guy who is outside the light forest area is treated as being in the open, his team mate 6m away in the woods gets more of a chance of not become a casualty.

Ahhh... Interesting. That's the case when a squad occupies two tiles, right? And that's about KE projectiles, right? Not about HE. Correct?

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17 hours ago, IMHO said:

That's the case when a squad occupies two tiles, right?

Any soldier. Clearly a squad occupying multiple actions squares will have more diversity but even for a single team. The guy at the back of the light forest tile will get more protection from incoming fire than the guy at the front.

17 hours ago, IMHO said:

And that's about KE projectiles, right? Not about HE. Correct?

Nope HE too. I don't think that every piece of shrapnel is tracked but the same thing applies - after the "are you hit" check your terrain gives you a protection modifier. And it matters if the HE exploded above you are on the ground etc.

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2 hours ago, IanL said:

The guy at the back of the light forest tile will get more protection from incoming fire than the guy at the front.

As far as I understand individual tree truncks are tracked against for forests. So that's the "source" of protection for forests. Right? But for other terrains individual modifiers are used to determine P-to-hit. Correct?

2 hours ago, IanL said:

HE too. I don't think that every piece of shrapnel is tracked but the same thing applies - after the "are you hit" check your terrain gives you a protection modifier. And it matters if the HE exploded above you are on the ground etc.

I did some some tests few years ago to determine an optimal number of shells to employ agains different squads/teams and what I saw HE effect is tracked at unit level. A number of casualties in the squad is determined in a somewhat randomized way depending on where the shell explodes. Then in another round the total number of casualties is distributed between WIAs and KIAs. For the first step variance is manageable - far from spotting :)

Edited by IMHO

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FWIW I did some tests in CMSF1 and found that a longer artillery barrage on LIGHT was more effective at killing enemy (esp in buildings) than a short HEAVY barrage.  Doesn't help you cross open terrain, but if one is trying to kill more enemy is good to know (unless something in the game has changed with updates).

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@Erwin, interesting. I didn't test but I have a general impression that the higher the intensity - the bigger is CEP. Is it what you saw? Can you briefly describe test setup?

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I was playing missions in "The Road to Dinas" and having a lot of trouble.  So, I resorted to cheating :o and ran test after test using artillery using Heavy Long/Max and Light Long/Max. 

While admittedly not done in a scientific manner, I found that LIGHT LONG/MAX seemed to be more effective in killing more enemy.  At any rate, that is how I use arty now (unless am in a hurry and cannot wait for a long fire mission to end as I need that same artillery for some other mission quickly).

Also, I was primarily interested in killing enemy in buildings rather than in the open.

 

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27 minutes ago, IMHO said:

As far as I understand individual tree truncks are tracked against for forests. So that's the "source" of protection for forests. Right? But for other terrains individual modifiers are used to determine P-to-hit. Correct?

Yes, tree trunks factor in to who gets hit but I'm only talking about the protection effect from being in a certain type of terrain.

Lets say we have a two man team taking fire from directly ahead. They are in a light forest AS with some trees. If one man is at the front right of the AS they will likely have no tree and just a small amount of the light forest between them and the incoming fire. If the second man is at the back of the AS behind two trees he likely has 6m or so of light forest between himself and the incoming fire.

My understanding is for each incoming round the models of the tree trunks and the men will be hit tested. That means straight up the front man already had a higher chance of getting hit because he has no trees blocking the LOF of part or all of his model. For each hit that the models and round tracing indicates the front man gets a chance of the hit being ignored, this is to take into account the micro terrain we have been talking about. If it is open ground between the team and the shooters then he is not going to get much of a chance but it will be something for those small depressions that he would no doubt be hugging the ground in. The rear man will have 6m of light forest between him and the incoming fire so he will get a higher chance of the hit being ignored to simulate the small depressions, stumps and the dead tree branches etc that are between him and the incoming fire.

None of this is some miracle saving values or anything but they do give them a chance to not be hit even if their model's return a hit for a given round.

And yes I was assuming prone soldiers if they are kneeling or standing that matter too. I have no special knowledge of the code, no idea how big these effects are or exactly now they are calculated, I am just regurgitating what I have learned from reading comments from @Battlefront.com over the years.

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