Hunt mode - unrealistic exahaustion

[Panzer_Freak]

Hunt mode for infantry are all to exhausting, unrealistic exhausting. I can not recall that I have ever been that much more exhausted from sneaking and wtaching, when enemy contact is expected. Infantry get exhausted as hell as it is, why do Hunt mode exhaust them so damn much? Should not Hunt mode just be the mode where they always stop at contact instead? The move options now is good, the faster the more likely they only stop briefly or not at all to fire back. But it is unrealistic that Hunt mode are that more tiring for the infantry. I would like Hunt mode to be a slower advance and where they always stop at contact. Should it be more exhausting than just Normal move? Of course, when one cocentrate and have the weapon in ready position that is a little bit more exhausting than just marching ahead. But this much? Not in my opinion.

[RockinHarry]

you have a point. Mentally exhausting.. maybe yes. But physically? Hm...  Like many the other more abstracted stuff in the game there might be more under the hood not mentioned in the game manual....

[Panzer_Freak]

Yepp, I can agree on some exahaustion - but not much, as it is now it is borderline riddicolus. I have actually almost stop using Hunt mode, only in very specific situations. Splitting up squads into fire teams and leapfrog them using regular move mode is better, because then they do not get exhausted and still have good enough fire readiness with in the squad.

[landser]

I'd like to know more about how this works.

I just bought SF2, but before doing so I tried the demo, and played the training scenario a couple of times. I noticed that when I dismounted a squad and moved them 100m they were 'tiring'. 50m were quick and 50m hunt.

Later I played the first mission in Forging Steel campaign. In this one I kept my infantry moving, using quick and hunt with few stops and they never went below normal and moved over a kilometer on foot. Of course these are scouts and the training scenario is a rifle squad. Maybe it's down to how much ammo they are carrying? Maybe engine differences,  fitness,  ambient temperature? 

[MOS:96B2P]

On 10/26/2019 at 8:12 AM, landser said:

I'd like to know more about how this works.

I just bought SF2, but before doing so I tried the demo, and played the training scenario a couple of times. I noticed that when I dismounted a squad and moved them 100m they were 'tiring'. 50m were quick and 50m hunt.

Later I played the first mission in Forging Steel campaign. In this one I kept my infantry moving, using quick and hunt with few stops and they never went below normal and moved over a kilometer on foot. Of course these are scouts and the training scenario is a rifle squad. Maybe it's down to how much ammo they are carrying? Maybe engine differences,  fitness,  ambient temperature? 

A heavy load of ammo will cause troops to fatigue.  Fitness definitely will effect fatigue.  Using Hunt or Fast for 50 meters will, noticeably , cause fatigue.  All movement commands will cause some level of fatigue except Move (walking).  Troops can actually improve their fatigue state while using Move.  My default movement command is Quick.  Quick from cover to cover with Pause.  Pause (since troops go prone or at least kneel) will help break any OpFor LOS on the team, will rest the team and allow the team to spot.  Pause used at certain waypoints will reduce fatigue of all the movement commands except Move.  Troops can use Move with no fatigue penalty.  Of course it is often not practical to use Move (walk) depending on the situation. 

I generally use Hunt with Pause for scouts who I think are about to make contact but I'm not sure exactly when/where they will draw fire.  On Hunt the team of scouts will halt and go prone.  Then the overwatch and the rest of the platoon can begin to deal with the shooters.      

[Bulletpoint]

On 10/26/2019 at 3:12 PM, landser said:

I just bought SF2, but before doing so I tried the demo, and played the training scenario a couple of times. I noticed that when I dismounted a squad and moved them 100m they were 'tiring'. 50m were quick and 50m hunt.

What are the weather conditions and temperature in the scenario? What terrain did the squad move through?

[landser]

Not sure Bulletpoint, it's the training scenario in the demo. Terrain was forest/woods. Maybe it's just very hot?

Good post MOS, and I think all of that is pretty clear, my curiosity is more nuanced though. Why did the rifle squad tire in 100m when the scout squad could move in the same manner, through similar terrain over a kilometer without dropping below Ready? Heat, fitness, load, terrain and movement type all play a part we would assume.  My curiosity isn't about what causes fatigue, but more developing a feel for which causes how much of it. I know from experience that if you have a platoon and have one squad draw an extra 1000 rounds of ammo, it will tire before the other two squads. Is it absolute, that 10% more weight equals 10% more fatigue? Or is there more of a threshold sort of mechanic, where under a certain weight it has no/little effect, and over a certain amount there is a noticable effect?

So really, it's not what causes fatigue that I am curious about, but more subtly, which does how much, to whom and when? Are scouts more resistant to it all things being equal for example? Does an additional 500 rounds of ammo carried cause exactly half the additional 'fatigue load' that 1000 rounds would?  Honestly, it's all interwoven and I suspect that attempting to analyze it all is futile. It's a grey thing that isn't so easily distilled to black and white.

[MOS:96B2P]

11 minutes ago, landser said:

Why did the rifle squad tire in 100m when the scout squad could move in the same manner, through similar terrain over a kilometer without dropping below Ready?

Are scouts more resistant to it all things being equal for example? 

Ah, the details ...... .  First to define scouts.  Game mechanic definition: Scouts are obtained by the administrative command split for scouts that split off a two man rifle team or the three man purchase screen of scouts that generally have three dudes with SMGs. 

These above defined "scouts" generally have lighter equipment than the remainder of their squad.  The rest of the squad has LMGs, AT weapons, etc. that they are the prime movers for.  So the difference in equipment carried may have resulted in different fatigue states.  That would be my first guess. 

Below are some notes I have that I thought you might find interesting.  Most of the below notes came from some experiments run by @Josey Wales who looking at the four soft factors (Experience, Fitness, Motivation & Leadership). 

Fatigue states best to worst are;

Rested > Ready > Tiring > Tired > Fatigued > Exhausted

Keeping troops stationary recovers their fatigue relatively quickly. Hiding troops has no additional benefit.

Troops will recover fatigue whilst at the Move but it is at a slower rate.

Experience, Leadership and Motivation do not effect Fatigue states or recovery times.

Fatigue has no effect on Morale either persistent or temporary.

Fatigue has no effect on accuracy nor the range at which targets are engaged at. 

Fatigue will affect your movement options:

Tired troops cannot Fast Move.
Fatigued troops cannot Fast, Assault or Hunt Move.
Exhausted troops cannot Fast, Assault, Hunt or Quick Move.

 

[BornGinger]

It doesn't surprise me that the pixeltruppen get tighered when in hunt mode. If you try to walk the way they do with their legs you'd understand how tiresome it must be to be on the hunt for a long time. They always remind me of a girl on my street when I was a little boy, who whenever she weed or **** herself (having the runs) hurriedly walked home exactly that same way shouting "Mum, I ****/pissed myself!".

Edited February 4, 2020 by BornGinger

[Erwin]

I find myself using HUNT less and less as it seems too slow for most game purposes and (as you say) it tires the guys out quickly.  I used to use a mixture of QUICK and HUNT waypoints with 10-30 second PAUSES every 10-20 meters.  But, that is also very slow for a typical CM2 mission, and it's a PITA with all the clicking and pausing one has to do with the UI.  Now, I tend to simply have them QUICK move and then HIDE and then SLOW to a observation position.  

Am hoping that CM3 will feature more AI commands like "Go recon over there and report back" and the unit will use appropriate to the situation "recon behavior" without the player having to micromanage everything.  Maybe even retreat to a safer position when they find something.

[DougPhresh]

Even with a rifle at your shoulder advancing cautiously, you'd hardly be exhausted after a few hundred meters.

I know that's not how soldiers in the second world war carried their rifles, but in SF2 it's egregious seeing soldiers exhausted after doing what even the National Guard can do on their weekend exercises. Advancing with your M4 ready is not a bag drive.

[lsailer]

I assume the animation for hunt movement is just an abstraction.  I expect scouts "hunting" would spend a lot of time hiding/crouching/crawling and so on, not just walking like a toddler with a pant load.  If you just want them to move forward till someone shoots at them, use Move 8-)

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

I always wondered about the fatigue on the HUNT command and perceive it as exaggerated be it for WW2 or modern. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[Bulletpoint]

15 hours ago, lsailer said:

I assume the animation for hunt movement is just an abstraction.  I expect scouts "hunting" would spend a lot of time hiding/crouching/crawling and so on, not just walking

Unfortunately, the game does seem to treat "hunting" soldiers as basically just walking forward slowly. They don't get much extra chance to avoid getting shot.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[DougPhresh]

Maybe in the modern titles, it could be animated as Gunfighter  - plates forward, weapon ready. It is a little more tiring to advance in that position.

[General Jack Ripper]

Personally I think the added fatigue using Hunt is intended to force the player to use it less than they otherwise would, because if it was less fatiguing than everyone would just use Hunt all the time.

On 2/4/2020 at 3:59 PM, Erwin said:

I find myself using HUNT less and less as it seems too slow for most game purposes and (as you say) it tires the guys out quickly.  I used to use a mixture of QUICK and HUNT waypoints with 10-30 second PAUSES every 10-20 meters.  But, that is also very slow for a typical CM2 mission, and it's a PITA with all the clicking and pausing one has to do with the UI.  Now, I tend to simply have them QUICK move and then HIDE and then SLOW to a observation position.

That works fine for the lead unit, but all your following units not in contact can simply use Move instead. It saves a lot of time, hassle, and keeps your guys fresh for when they need to dash into action.

I use Hunt on my lead scout, the next fire team uses short Quick moves to keep in contact alternately moving and covering the lead team.
The following squads will just use Move commands into each cleared feature as we advance, either split into teams or the whole squad at once.
If we make contact, the following squad can then either split into teams and Quick to a supporting position, or can Hunt as described in a new direction to bypass resistance.

[Erwin]

37 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

That works fine for the lead unit, but all your following units not in contact can simply use Move instead. It saves a lot of time, hassle, and keeps your guys fresh for when they need to dash into action.

Agreed... So long as one is confident there is no enemy that can fire on the units.  

 

37 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I use Hunt on my lead scout, the next fire team uses short Quick moves to keep in contact alternately moving and covering the lead team.

I used to do this.  I still do the same with the "back up" fire team.  (How many meters or seconds behind the leas scout(s) do you have them?)

But, most scenarios are short with time pressure to make it a challenge (at least vs the AI).  So, have come to terms with the fact that the lead scouts will probably die no matter what I do.  So, now I QUICK move the scouts with 0-15 second pauses at waypoints set about 10-30 meters apart (primarily to keep em at least "Ready".  At the start, the waypoints can be quite far apart with 0-5 second pauses.  As the scout approaches a potential enemy position the waypoints are set much closer together with longer pauses of 10-20 secs.  And for the lead scouts I always order HIDE at each waypoint.  If someone shoots at a scout you know about it and the scout has done his job.  Now, one's job is to try and keep the scout(s) alive as long as possible.

I generally now only use HUNT when approaching the side of a building, or entering it.  

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Erwin

[Bulletpoint]

17 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

That works fine for the lead unit, but all your following units not in contact can simply use Move instead. It saves a lot of time, hassle

Problem is, if your guys even see 1 bullet hit close to them while on the MOVE, they will start charging ahead towards next waypoint using FAST, which will get them killed or at least tire them out more than HUNT will.

I think the only people who use MOVE are the veterans of CM1. There's hardly ever any reason to use it in CM2.

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

18 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Personally I think the added fatigue using Hunt is intended to force the player to use it less than they otherwise would, because if it was less fatiguing than everyone would just use Hunt all the time.

As mentioned HUNT is slower than MOVE and for covering bigger distances time efficient without fatigue I definitely would keep using MOVE.

Despite this, why is it something bad if HUNT would see alot of use? If enemy contact is expected - which is most times the situation for a Combat Mission scenario from minute one - a slow advance, ready to hit the deck/engage, and a weapon alert carry is a quiet appropiate approach.  

Edited February 10, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[General Jack Ripper]

12 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Problem is, if your guys even see 1 bullet hit close to them while on the MOVE, they will start charging ahead towards next waypoint using FAST, which will get them killed or at least tire them out more than HUNT will.

I think the only people who use MOVE are the veterans of CM1. There's hardly ever any reason to use it in CM2.

If you Move directly into unexpected enemy contact you deserve to get ambushed.

You're not supposed to leave move waypoints going across danger areas. You move to that last safe terrain feature your lead scout already cleared.

The idea is to prevent fatigue while moving long distance, Move is not a general purpose command. There are no general-purpose movement commands.

 

12 hours ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said:

Despite this, why is it something bad if HUNT would see alot of use? If enemy contact is expected - which is most times the situation for a Combat Mission scenario from minute one - a slow advance, ready to hit the deck/engage, and a weapon alert carry is a quiet appropiate approach.  

Yes, but you're not expecting contact with all your units at all times. Hunt is for your lead scout, and maybe your leading squad. The complaint registered is that Hunt causes excessive fatigue. My answer to that is the player is using it too much, mostly because it's being used too much.

Turning down the fatigue effect would simply encourage it to be used even more than the too much it's being used already. Hunt exists because it's useful, just like Move, Quick, Fast, and Slow. Every UI command given to the player serves a purpose, the key to becoming skilled at this game is to learn to use the correct command at the correct time, and in the correct situation.

Now I've put on a sixty pound pack, strapped some magazines to my hip, and gone tramping across the countryside on a few occasions, and I think troops in Combat Mission tend to get fatigued quite a bit more quickly than in reality.

I wouldn't change this tough. I understand why it's done this way. It's to force you to plan your movement, and not just quick move across the map.

As this video begins you can see me moving a squad across a field. Note the combination of short Quick moves, Hunt moves, and regular Move moves.

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by General Jack Ripper

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

1 hour ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Yes, but you're not expecting contact with all your units at all times. Hunt is for your lead scout, and maybe your leading squad. The complaint registered is that Hunt causes excessive fatigue. My answer to that is the player is using it too much, mostly because it's being used too much.

Turning down the fatigue effect would simply encourage it to be used even more than the too much it's being used already. Hunt exists because it's useful, just like Move, Quick, Fast, and Slow. Every UI command given to the player serves a purpose, the key to becoming skilled at this game is to learn to use the correct command at the correct time, and in the correct situation.

Now I've put on a sixty pound pack, strapped some magazines to my hip, and gone tramping across the countryside on a few occasions, and I think troops in Combat Mission tend to get fatigued quite a bit more quickly than in reality.

Same did I. I can´t speak for other players but even when HUNT would come with low/no fatigue it would not change much for my current modus operandi and I still would keep using MOVE especially for most rear movement. In fact the major thing that would change for me is stop wondering why this fatigue was slapped onto HUNT.

For me as RT player there is absolute no hassle with all that but I do understand why some might miss either a middle solution (MOVE to CONTACT) or would like to see the HUNT fatigue changed. 

I also generally do not agree to trade authenticity for sake of balancing the usage of ingame movement commands but I see your points here as the devs pretty sure had something in mind when opting for this solution.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Aquila-SmartWargames

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Aquila-SmartWargames said:

...as RT player...

When posting we should make a note re how we play the game, RT or WEGO.  Things just do not work the same for both.  Makes a big difference re tactics etc. and leads to confusion when readers do not know what mode a player is using.

[JoMac]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

When posting we should make a note re how we play the game, RT or WEGO.  Things just do not work the same for both.  Makes a big difference re tactics etc. and leads to confusion when readers do not know what mode a player is using.

Yes, but  technically, RT & WEGO should play-out about the same in a 1 minute turn..and, if it doesn't, then something is wrong with how the Game Mechanics treat RT differently then WEGO.

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

6 hours ago, Erwin said:

Things just do not work the same for both

For example?

[DougPhresh]

In real time you can get your units under control when the Tac-AI reacts in ways that will get them killed, for example scattering in FAST. In WEGO if the tac-AI makes a bad decision in the first seconds of a turn, you have to watch it play out.

Edited February 11, 2020 by DougPhresh