Spreading the Fausts Around

[Erwin]

Have learned that one should never keep units close together anyplace that isn't 100% safe.  A repeat error I make is advancing and bunching up inf in a building.  

[Warts 'n' all]

You might well be right. But you can't advance and stay 100% safe. Well not with me in command anyway.

[Erwin]

It's the bunching up that's the problem - even in defense.  In my games it's often that I want to put a couple of HMG's or several squads in a particular building so they can blow the hell out of something, and then they get hit with many casualties more than if there had only been one team or squad in the building.

[landser]

Well it's a trade-off isn't it? Concentration is a key principle of warfare, but the flip side of course is vulnerability. In most scenarios I play, and certainly in this campaign, I prefer concentrating my armor. Because the enemy armor is so lethal (85mm) in this one, I wanted to try and ensure that I established fire superiority during the tank engagements. If the enemy hits/penetrates straight off then it's all out the window anyway. But the way it played out, especially when I was able to initiate at long range, meant the three or four barrels firing back scored first most of the time. The duel with the assault guns in the fourth battle, Ciemne, Cimene, Cimne, was a perfect example. I lost a tank or two, but it would have been much worse without so many tanks firing back I think.

With infantry I do it all differently, as the threat of artillery especially makes me try to keep them at the end of their C2 links. Plus infantry are more vulnerable to rounds aimed at someone else. The most glaring example of this for me in Blunting the Spear was when I tried to sneak a company around the flank of a pair of AT guns deployed expertly in a ditch in the fifth battle, Dybow Kolonia. I successfully turned the flank, and was working the infantry along the ditch, and had just eliminated the HQ in a sharp firefight when one of the AT guns let loose a round of canister and three platoons took casualties from the single shot. I withdrew and gave up that idea. Those guns survived the battle and prevented me from moving any armor in that area. If you've played this battle you'll know the guns I am speaking of.

Edited October 23, 2019 by landser

[Vergeltungswaffe]

2 hours ago, landser said:

Well it's a trade-off isn't it? Concentration is a key principle of warfare, but the flip side of course is vulnerability. In most scenarios I play, and certainly in this campaign, I prefer concentrating my armor. Because the enemy armor is so lethal (85mm) in this one, I wanted to try and ensure that I established fire superiority during the tank engagements. If the enemy hits/penetrates straight off then it's all out the window anyway. But the way it played out, especially when I was able to initiate at long range, meant the three or four barrels firing back scored first most of the time. The duel with the assault guns in the fourth battle, Ciemne, Cimene, Cimne, was a perfect example. I lost a tank or two, but it would have been much worse without so many tanks firing back I think.

Exactly this.  1 tank is a target.  A platoon is a weapon.

[landser]

2 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Exactly this.  1 tank is a target.  A platoon is a weapon.

Agreed. I tried to keep my armor grouped tightly by platoon as I mentioned earlier, and can be seen in some of my screens. During a typical WEGO segment a Panther or Mark IV averages about five main gun shots per 60 seconds (12 seconds per shot if neither move, just a straight-up slugfest). The T-34 and SU-85 are somewhat slower. So if you can get four tanks firing on that lone target that's roughly twenty to four per minute in terms of fire rate, and that's what I was trying to achieve. And it worked very well, as my tank kill ratio was 94:14 to all causes (are SU-85/76 classed as tanks or armored vehicles in the debrief? If armored vehicles, then the ratio was far better than that). Combined with better crews on average and superior optics, sustained fire rate ascendancy is going to win most of these fights, provided one shot-one kill capability of the weapon.

It's also true that I was lucky. My tanks, well the Panthers anyway, shrugged off a lot of hits, particularly on the turret. I also got lucky in that my vehicles didn't bog. I used fast a lot and only one Mark IV bogged and then immobilized, and that was in the fourth battle on dry, clear ground. The final battle is damp and I had dozens and dozens of vehicles, tracked and wheeled, all going cross country at fast speed and none of them bogged.

 

[Bozowans]

Wow, congrats on completing the campaign, you're way ahead of me! I just finished mission 4 finally. It takes me way too long to play these games.

This mission was surprisingly uneventful though. No tanks were lost, and I lost only one half-track (to an airplane). There was not a single tank engagement throughout the whole scenario. Since there were 2 hours to spare in this scenario, I repeated the same tactic I used from mission 3 and decided to walk my infantry across the map in a long, spread-out skirmish line again, with all armor in reserve. Once my infantry made it closer to the final village, I knocked out two assault guns with mortars and artillery. Then the rest of the enemy pulled back and retreated off the map. There were a number of small-scale infantry firefights, SMG ambushes and lots of artillery flying back and forth, but not much else happened.

I noticed that some of the Soviet troops carried over from the earlier missions, since their total campaign kills exceeded the ones from that scenario. I suppose if I wasn't so aggressive in those first couple of missions, pushing for those Total Victories, I would've had a tougher time on this one. Now on to mission 5! This one looks a lot more difficult already. There's a bit less time to work with and it's dark outside now, which means more close range fights, which is bad for me.

[landser]

Yes, the AI has a core force, though obviously they receive replacements. The better you do in one battle the less you should face after. For me the fourth battle had at least a platoon of assault guns and five T-34s and I had a tougher go of it. Killing tanks is key to setting up the final battle as I understand it and that's how I approached it. Still, they had quite a few at the end.

The fact that in several scenarios the AI is to exit can add some urgency to your operation, although I didn't let that enter my plans. If they made it off good for them, meet later. Upping the tempo to prevent their escape would just lead to needless casualties is the way I approached it.

[Warts 'n' all]

11 hours ago, landser said:

(are SU-85/76 classed as tanks or armored vehicles in the debrief? 

 

They are classed as tanks, this also applies to StugIVs, Brummbars, Sextons etc 

[landser]

18 hours ago, Bozowans said:

Now on to mission 5! This one looks a lot more difficult already. There's a bit less time to work with and it's dark outside now, which means more close range fights, which is bad for me.

This was one of the more difficult missions for me, and the one where I displayed the least ambition for taking objectives. I took the town that starts with 'W' and Stary Jankow? was contested at the end, but otherwise I kept it tight and concentrated and wasn't suckered in to those flank objectives and it ended as a minor victory. The visibility works like night, where things are inside the blue sightlines, but not visible to your units unless they move or fire. There were a number of 'why can't he see that tank' moments. Combined with the tricky contours of the map (I felt like it was sort of crowned) it's a challenging scenario, or it was for me. It was a fun one though.

A couple of posts back I said the fifth battle was Dybow Kolonia, but it's Stary Jankow isn't it? These place names don't stick in the brain.

Thanks Warts, that's good to know.

Edited October 24, 2019 by landser

[Bozowans]

I noticed a few T-34s on mission 4 but I couldn't tell how many, and they fled before I could do anything. This time the AI did a pretty good job withdrawing as far as I could tell. I organized a big attack on the final town, infiltrated my infantry all over the fields outside the town, massed my armor on the right, dropped a huge smokescreen and tried to storm the town only to find it mostly empty except for a few stragglers. I never got a surrender and had to cease fire. The Soviet casualties were fairly light as well as my own. I guess that's a successful delaying action on their part!

Catching up on some of these other posts:

13 hours ago, landser said:

Well it's a trade-off isn't it? Concentration is a key principle of warfare, but the flip side of course is vulnerability. In most scenarios I play, and certainly in this campaign, I prefer concentrating my armor. Because the enemy armor is so lethal (85mm) in this one, I wanted to try and ensure that I established fire superiority during the tank engagements. If the enemy hits/penetrates straight off then it's all out the window anyway. But the way it played out, especially when I was able to initiate at long range, meant the three or four barrels firing back scored first most of the time. The duel with the assault guns in the fourth battle, Ciemne, Cimene, Cimne, was a perfect example. I lost a tank or two, but it would have been much worse without so many tanks firing back I think.

With infantry I do it all differently, as the threat of artillery especially makes me try to keep them at the end of their C2 links. Plus infantry are more vulnerable to rounds aimed at someone else. The most glaring example of this for me in Blunting the Spear was when I tried to sneak a company around the flank of a pair of AT guns deployed expertly in a ditch in the fifth battle, Dybow Kolonia. I successfully turned the flank, and was working the infantry along the ditch, and had just eliminated the HQ in a sharp firefight when one of the AT guns let loose a round of canister and three platoons took casualties from the single shot. I withdrew and gave up that idea. Those guns survived the battle and prevented me from moving any armor in that area. If you've played this battle you'll know the guns I am speaking of.

That's always been an interesting question to me in these games. For this campaign I've been experimenting with spreading out my troops far more than I ever did before, especially with all the open ground, tanks, and heavy ordnance flying about. I've mostly just been ignoring the C2 links unless I have troops getting decisively engaged (like assaulting an objective up close). The rest of the time I've been trying to go for some kind of infiltration tactics, with platoons spread out over many hundreds of meters, each squad split into smaller teams far apart from each other. Sometimes I will have scouts or fireteams hundreds of meters ahead of everyone else, trying to move around known enemy positions and getting into the rear.

The Soviet infantry are mostly SMG troops in this campaign, so this has been much easier to do so far. I can brazenly walk troops around in the open or bypass enemy positions and they can't do anything about it except lob ineffectual mortars at me. This tactic has worked pretty well so far. I thought missions 1, 3 and 4 were pretty easy. Mission 2 was hard as hell though because of that built-up urban terrain and came pretty close to disaster for me. I'm not very good at urban fighting.

[Bozowans]

23 minutes ago, landser said:

This was one of the more difficult missions for me, and the one where I displayed the least ambition for taking objectives. I took the town that starts with 'W' and Stary Jankow? was contested at the end, but otherwise I kept it tight and concentrated and wasn't suckered in to those flank objectives and it ended as a minor victory. The visibility works like night, where things are inside the blue sightlines, but not visible to your units unless they move or fire. There were a number of 'why can't he see that tank' moments. Combined with the tricky contours of the map (I felt like it was sort of crowned) it's a challenging scenario, or it was for me. It was a fun one though.

Thanks Warts, that's good to know.

Just starting on the fifth mission now. I'm spreading everyone way out again, sending one company out through the fields and woods on the left and the other company to probe the villages on the right.  I've played the first few minutes so far and my forward scouts have already spotted a wave of enemy tanks coming right at me. This should be good. 

[landser]

You're having a proper go of it Bozowans, nicely done. If you finish this campaign would you please let me know how many T-34s were in the final battle? I think it would be interesting to compare. I won't say how many I had just yet to keep the veil in place, though I've spoiled the hell out of this campaign so far. But it would be interesting to see if there's any significant difference from one run to the next depending on how it plays out for each player. I'd also be interested to see the final campaign totals as well, but no obligation of course.

Good luck on this one mate, the designers had a few tricks up their sleeves. They obviously spent a lot of time carefully placing the defenses in this campaign.

 

[Bozowans]

2 hours ago, landser said:

Good luck on this one mate, the designers had a few tricks up their sleeves.

Thanks, I'm gonna need it considering what just happened 

*spoiler alert*

At the beginning of this mission a platoon of T-34s went on a crazy mad suicide charge straight at my lines. My tanks were out of position to deal with a sudden, unexpected tank charge like that, so only a couple of my tanks were in a position to fire back. Two of the T-34s were destroyed, but not before knocking out one of the Panthers. The third T-34 managed to charge full speed across a field straight toward my infantry and trucks in the rear, running a gauntlet of Panther fire the whole way. Five Panther shots were directed at it, and all missed, at a range of about 700m. The T-34 kept going until out of view of the Panthers and got mixed in with my scout line, almost running over a scout team. The T-34 stopped, blew up a different scout team at point blank range, then started getting hit by repeated volleys of AA half-track fire and grenades from the scout team it almost ran over. Eventually it was knocked out by an astonishingly lucky Panzerschreck hit from 185m away, just as the turret was turning toward the AA half-track. If the T-34 had made it just a little bit farther, it would have been in a perfect position to blow the hell out of the mass of trucks, mortar teams and support units I had parked in the rear. The T-34 had even fired at a couple of trucks, but missed. That was a close one.

Even crazier though was the lone tank driver that jumped out of the burning T-34. He hopped out right in front of one of my scouts, just a few feet away. The cowardly scout promptly got up and started running away, but the tank driver started chasing him across the field, firing his pistol as he ran after him, hot on his heels. The driver eventually got shot in the back by the scout's teammate after a brief chase. That had to be one of the sillier things I've seen in this game.  

[landser]

Gotta love this game. That was one angry tank driver. Good stuff .

[Warts 'n' all]

I hate pistol packing tank crew.

[landser]

Dastardly!  It's a great story though and I can imagine the panic of a T-34 running amok in your rear. And to have it taken out at the moment of truth by a 185m rocket shot is emergent drama of the first order. The only thing that would be better is if the 'schreck shot was in flight at the end of the turn

[Bozowans]

On 10/24/2019 at 4:42 PM, Warts 'n' all said:

I hate pistol packing tank crew.

They really are annoying aren't they? After a big tank battle they tend to be scattered all over the map hiding among trees and wheat fields and whatnot. Then the only warning you have that they are around is when a sudden flurry of pistol shots ring out at point blank range, taking down some of your men in the process. I just lost three men to one of those tank crews. 

I wish that units can retreat off the map in this game. Tank crews should be getting off the field ASAP, not lying around in ambush with their silly little pistols.

[John Kettler]

On 10/3/2019 at 1:32 PM, Ts4EVER said:

The 30k is the Panzerfaust kurz, the older version. Also called a Faustpatrone.

Close, but no cigar. The small "K" is for "klein" or "little",  rather than  "kurz" or "short".

Regards,

John Kettler

[landser]

^ True, that.

How's the battle going Bozowans?

Erwin, are you still playing this one?

 

[Bulletpoint]

On 10/23/2019 at 7:55 PM, landser said:

I used fast a lot and only one Mark IV bogged and then immobilized, and that was in the fourth battle on dry, clear ground. The final battle is damp and I had dozens and dozens of vehicles, tracked and wheeled, all going cross country at fast speed and none of them bogged.

 

That's because bogging risk is not liked to movement order

Paging @Erwin

[landser]

Is that true? Because as you know it's been a commonly held belief around here over the years. It's been definitively disproven then? Of course I have no idea either way and anyway, having driven in the mud a lot it's surely better to go fast than slow if you want to keep going

What matters though is how it's programmed.

OK, if that's the case, it is still remarkable that none of that huge fleet bogged at all in that final battle I reckon.

Edited October 29, 2019 by landser

[Bozowans]

On 10/28/2019 at 10:24 AM, landser said:

How's the battle going Bozowans?

Very slowly! I wish I had more time lately to play these games. I finally finished the fifth battle. It was quite difficult; the most difficult one yet other than the second one. I lost three Panthers destroyed outright, and another two were immobilized, so I really lost five tanks. Another two after that lost their main guns, and even more lost their commanders or other crew members. That was a nasty fight. The Panthers performed so well in the third battle, but their gunnery was not so good in this one. I tried massing my armor and hitting the enemy with local superiority in numbers, but they would still miss loads of shots and get picked off one by one. The enemy also had some very well placed AT guns in this one. One of the AT guns managed to shoot one of the Panthers right in the backside from like 50m away. I had no idea it was there and the tank drove right past it, just a few feet away. Oh well, luckily they give you so many tanks that it doesn't matter too much if you lose a bunch of them. I'm going into the final battle with a whole other company of Panthers that is pretty much untouched. 

Despite the few setbacks, I still managed to get a total victory and force a Russian surrender with 6 minutes to go on the clock. I had tanks surrounding the final objective and infantry storming into the village when it ended. The enemy lost 22 tanks/assault guns. There were a lot of pretty intense moments in that one, and lots of extreme close quarters fighting in the dark.

I looked over the final battle for a few minutes and it looks crazy. I hope it doesn't crash my computer with how big it is. It's gonna take me ages to play it.

 

On 10/29/2019 at 6:45 AM, landser said:

Is that true? Because as you know it's been a commonly held belief around here over the years. It's been definitively disproven then? Of course I have no idea either way and anyway, having driven in the mud a lot it's surely better to go fast than slow if you want to keep going

What matters though is how it's programmed.

OK, if that's the case, it is still remarkable that none of that huge fleet bogged at all in that final battle I reckon.

I've heard this too and I wonder if this was the case in the CMx1 engine? I thought you had to move tanks slower in that one or else they would bog down. Maybe that's why that belief has carried over into CMx2? Or maybe that's never even been the case at all?

[landser]

Great work, I managed only a minor victory and was not close to enemy surrender. That's a tough one to get a total, so you did very well, and like you said you have plenty of tanks and now your final battle is a little more manageable. Yeah that's it

Was the AT gun you speak of in a ditch?

Hope you find the time for the final one, as you've come this far.

 

[Bozowans]

The AT gun was behind a building.  I started the battle by sending out a big wave of scouts all over the map in a big skirmish line, to feel out the enemy positions. I first saw one of the ditch AT guns when it blew up one of the scout teams all of a sudden. I lost two more scout teams when I tried to work them around the flanks of the gun, to feel out where the enemy positions ended and where those flanks were. By the time I figured that out, I had my second wave of follow-up troops, HMG teams and platoon leaders snuck into position, just out of view of the guns. Then I launched a big company-sized infantry assault on the whole ditch line, attacking them in the front and rolling up both flanks at the same time with mortars in support. I managed to knock out one of the guns with grenades right up close, and I only took one or two casualties IIRC. So I got lucky there.

When that was over, I was starting to get anxious about running low on time and I didn't expect even more AT guns to be farther back. So I rolled the tanks forward. Sometimes I like to use my tanks like they are medieval cavalry or horse archers or something, and have them roll way out around the enemy flanks and deep into their rear areas without infantry support. It's a really risky gamble and sometimes you will lose a lot of tanks doing it, but sometimes it pays off big and you can catch large numbers of enemy troops with their pants down and just massacre them. Well I started rolling the Panthers into the enemy rear, encircling some of the farm houses back there like a bunch of vultures. The AT gun back there had been silent the whole battle and I couldn't see it even when right up on it. I even had infantry pretty close by and they couldn't see it either. I thought the whole position had been cleared when the tank got blasted point blank. The crew jumped out and immediately surrendered. Of course, MY tank crews don't go out fighting to the death in a blaze of glory with their pistols. They just surrender instantly.  I was able to rescue the crew a few minutes later though.

This campaign has been really fun so far and I'm definitely gonna push it all the way to the end even if it takes forever.