Spreading the Fausts Around

[landser]

15 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Almost every clump of trees contains Russians. Just when you think that you have killed them all, bang, more of them.

Ain't that the truth!  It's crawling with Ivan, he has infested every little patch of cover or concealment on the map it seems. You are quite right. But the German has a very powerful force with which to attempt to eject them, I suppose depending on how well forces were conserved in the previous battles. I have two main axes of advance, each with a company of tanks and two companies of infantry, with plenty of support from crew-served weapons, artillery and tracks. That's a heavy hammer. We took the right-most objective with only two infantry casualties, but the remnants have withdrawn in to the forests and will have to be rooted out as we make our way to the next objective.

It was glorious really, with artillery crashing in, a smoke 'corridor' created, through which the assaulting infantry arrived in halftracks before dismounting and getting down to business. HMGs were laying fire in on the flanks, tanks enveloped the target on both sides. It was a very strong enemy force installed at the objective, but as the assault started, they mostly got up and ran and were cut down though a number managed to escape as my liberal use of smoke works both ways doesn't it? The fact we got a resupply for this mission means we have lots of smoke and I'm not shy about using it.

So with a little more than an hour to go we have secured one objective and are closing in on two more, though there's plenty to do to get there. And there are aircraft buzzing around and I'm waiting to see what fate deals me. Which part of my plan comes apart due to air attack?

Edited October 17, 2019 by landser

[Erwin]

44 minutes ago, landser said:

 Maps are around 3k x 3k and most missions are around battalion in size. The final one is even larger. I mentioned it before, but these battles have an operational feel to them, the way they flow, the coordination required. I don't know if you've played games like Grigsby's War in the East, and especially as the Russians. The way you are playing two games in one. There's the front, where the combat is, but there's also the whole matter of getting the arriving units forward where you need them.

Yes, yes, yes and yes...  Love all these aspects.  And agree, when CM is large enuff to feel almost operational that is great.  Having to deal with force and ammo conservation decisions is a great plus.  It's enjoyable to start with what seems like a huge force, maybe too much.  But, then the challenge is to conserve what you have as if you lose too much the later battles can become impossible.

There are few other CM2 campaigns that are like this - IIRC "Road To Dinas" (made for CMSF1) was memorable in this regard.  

Few campaigns are no being made with that sophistication as it must be much harder to design.  Recently most campaigns seems to allow you to start a mission with a full force and full ammo with no/few consequences carrying over from previous battles.  

[landser]

17 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Few campaigns are no being made with that sophistication as it must be much harder to design.  Recently most campaigns seems to allow you to start a mission with a full force and full ammo with no/few consequences carrying over from previous battles.  

Quite right, Road to Montebourg is like that. You have a number of different battle groups, related but essentially separate. I prefer a core force, like this one, or Kampfgruppe Engel is another. When persistent repair and ammo states are included it's really the sweet spot, as those must be managed as well. I recall in KGE getting to the Dives river crossing mission and my armor was alive but in tatters, with shot-out optics, radios and barrels. One Panther's tracks were in such a poor state that it was really little more than a barely mobile pillbox, and I had used up most of the rounds in the ammo racks and it forced me to find another way, instead of relying on heavy armor firepower applied from range. Good stuff.

Edited October 17, 2019 by landser

[landser]

Oh yeah, one more thing that just occurred to me.... reserves. In many scenarios and campaigns I play I want to position reserves. But often I find I commit these reserves on the attack frontage, and they aren't really reserves at all in the proper sense, more like late-arriving advanced elements, if such a paradox can exist. But in this campaign I have proper reserves. In other ones, when I have them, maybe it's a single squad, or a platoon held back. But in this final battle I am almost an hour in and have about eight platoons! still in reserve. That's cool.

So I have the flexibility to install flank screens, or reinforce success or replace losses, to widen breaches in the line, or to regain or maintain initiative if the attacking infantry becomes bogged down through a number of causes. I mentioned before that i tend to avoid large campaigns and battles, but this one has shifted my view somewhat, as I've found it very fun and interesting. There's a lot of micro, but it's a hell of a good time when in the right mindset. The act of conducting a proper combined arms attack, and with the forces to really do so, is very appealing for me.

[landser]

Fifty minutes remain, and the final battle is going well. I've been playing this campaign since September 26th. What a beast.

In this sixth and final battle my infantry has suffered. As Warts noted, the enemy is seemingly everywhere. My troops need to plunge in to the forests to comb them out. A single Russian soldier with a PPSh is very dangerous at such close quarters. At 20 feet range they cut loose and take out 4 or 5 of my troops before they've burned through a single magazine. There is too much forested terrain, and not enough time to march fire through all of it and often my first clue the enemy is there is the ubiquitous chatter of those SMGs. So all of the enemy squads cut up by the attack or by artillery, if they have any survivors that melt away, will be encountered again deep in the forests.

I took the right-most objective with a company of infantry.  Two of those platoons were then wheeled to the left (east) astride the road to sweep the forests along the route to the next objective and clear for the armor. One platoon was left to occupy the objective. The two platoons sweeping have been whittled down by the close encounters in the woods and no sooner had they cleared the objective than a enemy barrage hit it and caused casualties in the platoon left behind to 'rest'. 

All infantry reserves have now been committed. I still have most of my armor, and the two infantry companies on the left are in better shape as the terrain isn't so close and they aren't just walking in to the kill zones like the assaulting company on the right. As the sweeping platoons on the right wheeled left, the reserve company was fed along beyond them, creating an extended vertical right flank and essentially a big 'L' with these troops the shorter leg and the main body the longer one. The intention was to compress the final objectives from two sides, but on the right only three platoons are still near full strength. They're well behind the enemy MLR though and might be able to make progress. Some armor sound contacts along the back edge of the map give me pause though.

If I can push these reserves forward we can essentially create a kessel with a large portion of the enemy infantry caught inside. That's the new plan, to use the depleted platoons as a base or hinge, and use the two legs of the 'L' to converge and create the pocket. What little remains of my artillery can be brought in on them, and then the armor can be brought up to reduce the pocket while simultaneously taking the center objective and closing the ring. Best laid plans and all that....

Edited October 19, 2019 by landser

[landser]

I managed to complete this campaign, with the AI surrendering with 36 minutes left in the final battle.  I lost 76 men and 7 tanks (four Panthers, three Mark IV), plus a number of soft vehicles like trucks and a kubelwagen to air attack and artillery.  On the other side of the ledger though, the Russian lost 509 men plus 17 captured and 20 tanks, plus 59 of armored vehicles and other.  The artillery once again did the job.

In all for the campaign I lost 208 men and 14 tanks (five Panthers, nine Mark IV), while the enemy lost over 1300 men killed or wounded, 48 captured, and 94 tanks, plus 120+ assorted other vehicles. I played it on Veteran mostly for the quick artillery. Longest wait was nine minutes and three minutes on a TRP,  but those are only available in the first half of the campaign. These are dense missions, compressing a lot of action in to an hour and twenty minutes, and I'm glad I went for the shorter on-call times as I got to use the full power of the strong artillery the German is given. If I had to wait 13+ minutes for it then this campaign would have played very differently for me. I wish I had been on engine 4 to see the artillery kills. I'd guess that it accounted for about half of those 1300 kills.

The player starts the campaign with a total of 56 tanks, evenly split between the two types. Of course it's only in the final battle that all are on the same map.  So over the course I lost a quarter of my armor.

I had a great time playing this campaign. The maps are fantastic and offer up a nice blend of long range gunnery duels and close-in combat in the towns and forests of the region. My longest tank kill was 2269 meters in the second battle I think. But there is a lot of combat that takes place at 1500-2000 meters, which I find a lot of fun. I focused on force preservation, playing each battle cautiously in order to have the strongest force I could at the end. So I ignored certain objectives. For example the two flank touch objectives in the fifth? battle, Stary Jankow,  were clearly traps, served no tactical purpose, and I judged it a fool's errand to go for them. So they were ignored. I wasn't too concerned with the scoring, just trying to play sensibly, concentrating my forces and trying to keep them alive. I scored in order, Draw, Minor, Total, Total, Minor and Total, for a Total victory overall in the campaign. I was way too cautious in the first battle crossing the Rzadza river and let too many T-34s escape. But after that I got the pace.

Historically, the action this campaign portrays is not well-known, but this was the largest armor clash that occurred in Poland. I imagine that the grogs that hang on this board know about it. But it's worth recounting. In July of '44 the Russians were closing the Vistula and the eastern approaches to Warsaw. Operationally, it was XXXIX Panzer Corps defending against Rokossovsky's 1st Belorussian Front, and in this region 2nd Tank Army, of which the campaign's enemy, the 3rd Tank Corps, was part. Model ordered a counterattack with four Panzer Divisions. The Hermann Goring and 19th Panzer Divisions attacked first and managed to cut off 3rd Tank Corps from 2nd Tank Army. 5th SS and 4th Panzer then arrived and the pocketed 3rd Tank Corps was destroyed. In the campaign we command elements of 4th Panzer, and the player is attacking/pursuing 3rd Tank Corps as they fall back in to the pocket to ultimately deliver the crushing blow.

Historically, this action was a sharp success for the German. For the moment anyway, the Vistula crossings were safe, and the direct threat to Warsaw removed. It was a good example of how vulnerable armored spearheads can become after a long advance, and here, at the end of Bagration, 2nd Tank army was exploitable, Model recognized this and struck when the time was right. This action is also interesting for the role it played in the Warsaw Uprising which sparked as these forces approached the river. The Soviet defeat left Warsaw on it's own as they needed to cross the river elsewhere. Of course it's questionable whether Stalin wanted to enter Warsaw in the first place, as one might reason capturing Warsaw with no home army intact was preferable from a political point of view.

I started this thread because I thought one of my squads had thirty panzerfaust. I was quickly shown my error and then just turned it in to a sort of AAR and review of the campaign. I apologize for the spoilers, but as the campaign is nearly six years old now perhaps it's not such a sin. I think it goes without saying by now that this is an awesome campaign, with great battles and proper resources to conduct them. Ammunition and force preservation are important, as is killing as much Russian armor as possible to make the end manageable. I felt like there was always plenty of time, except maybe the second battle, but even there I took all of the objectives, even if I needed extra-time to do it. If you enjoy long range battles, and feeling like a battalion commander, with all of the attention to detail this demands, you should play Blunting the Spear. It's one of the best campaigns I have played in Combat Mission. Well done and thanks to everyone who had a hand in making it.

Edited October 20, 2019 by landser

[Erwin]

Thanks to this thread I overcame by CM burnout and am very much enjoying the first mission (halfway point). 

My only remark is that the reinforcements came a bit too quickly/early imo as I generally use only a few units to recon for the first 10-15 minutes and that led to a traffic jam when the reinforcements turn up on top of the at start units in the first 5-10 minutes.  That's only an issue for me as I like to keep company formations together and I found I was sending platoons from different companies out mixed up which upsets my anal-obsessive sense of order (heh).  It would be nice to have a better idea of what units are coming as reinforcements and where they will turn up.  But, that's a very minor issue compared to the excellence of the overall map, situation and scenario.

I don't want any spoilers or advice (currently) but am curious at the casualties other players reported at the end of each mission so there is something to compare my progress with.  Anyone recall their mission results?

[landser]

I took screens of each debrief, so yes I can help with that when you need them Erwin. Good luck in the campaign. I'd be interested in any reports you'd care to share.

[Warts 'n' all]

17 minutes ago, landser said:

I took screens of each debrief, so yes I can help with that when you need them Erwin. Good luck in the campaign. I'd be interested in any reports you'd care to share.

Well done on the results that you got. Give it a few years for the memory to fade and then try it on "Iron".

[landser]

No doubt Warts. I'm usually an iron player as I prefer the inexactness of the spotting. But sometimes I want more responsive artillery, and particularly in the bigger campaigns. Honestly, if on-call times were disconnected from the skill rating, I'd never play anything but iron again. The actions feel compressed when the scenario lasts for two hours or less, so I often feel like realistic on-call times don't fit with the seemingly accelerated time scale of the battles. I hope the next version of Combat Mission disconnects on-call times from the skill rating the player chooses.

[Erwin]

9 hours ago, landser said:

I took screens of each debrief, so yes I can help with that when you need them Erwin. Good luck in the campaign. I'd be interested in any reports you'd care to share.

In Mission 1 the large map is xnt and am enjoying having 2 Cos of armored inf plus 2 Cos of armor plus platoons of supporting elements.  

The reinforcements included recon units (odd they weren't on the map first).  They have been sent up the road (beside the RR).  Also odd is that there is no extra 7.62K ammo for the Stg44's and a low availability of Fausts.  But, I guess one has enuff tanks and Stummels.  

 

 

***MAYBE SOME SPOILERS...***

 

 

Looking at the map and orders it seemed that it was a red herring to attack the village to the RHS (N?) of the map.  There are no good river crossings usable by vehicles other than the town bridges, and the hill to the NW can see everything up to the RR.  The RR does a good job of blocking LOS across it, so have decided to send everything to the left (S?) of the RR, and advance up on that flank, ignoring the red herring village and that entire side of the map.   I am sure it would be fun to attack and clear the village, and one seems to have enuff force.  But, it seems tactically pointless since all the Points Objectives are on the other side of the river in town.

While the forces set up to attack the village are being redirected to the other side of the map, I sent out 4 x two man scouts from the starting forces on the left and they got to spot some enemy tanks after about 15 minutes.  I always recon carefully and feel like I could easily run out of time (only 1h 20m allowed for Mission 1).  But, there are some nasty ambushes that one really doesn't want to run into.  Wasn't sure how to kill the first T34/76 platoon but fortunately they came out of their good defensive positions and attacked - that made it much easier.  But, they are tough bastids.  One T-34 took about 5 penetrating hits and still KO'd a Mk IV before dying(!).  If they stayed in their positions it would have been a lot harder to get by that ambush.

I like to use the minimum force to accomplish sub-objectives/missions.  So far have only committed two inf platoons and 2 tank platoons with some recon and a couple of Stummels.  I want to use the Stummel ammo on suitable targets first (and save the Mk IV ammo) as it's easy to get Stummels killed if one isn't careful and there is no ammo resupply until Mission 5 (IIRC). 

55 minutes to go and am about to fight another ambush blocking the road through the woods.  Am only now now starting to move up the main force to mount an attack on the river in the next 15-20 minutes (Inshallah).  Have to make better use of the artillery and smoke than I usually do.  So far, lost one MkIV and a 251 carrying a 81mm mortar got immobilised for some reason.  One of the recon inf lightly wounded.  Am enjoying the force and ammo preservation requirements.

 

[landser]

Good stuff mate. You mentioned smoke, and while that's always a core part of my tactics, in this campaign it was even more so. I used a hell of a lot of it. The Panthers have no smoke, but virtually every other unit carries some. You are correct that there is no resupply until the final mission, which is the sixth not the fifth for what it's worth. You will need to stretch the Mark IV ammo and your smoke for three battles before then.

Your description of the T-34s on the near side of the river exactly matches mine. I had moved infantry in to the kolkhoz or whatever it might be called just to the left of the starting positions to get eyes on that side of the map before bringing the tank platoon committed there out. I spotted the T-34s and was trying to decide how to get them before they would get me when they made the decision for me, attacked and were gunned down by my concealed Mark IVs. When two tanks meet the one that's moving is usually at a disadvantage eh?

This was the only battle I did not win, and in retrospect I was way too cautious. It paid off with light losses, but not in scoring, and as mentioned that's just what I was trying to do, keep losses low and let the scores fall where they may. I believe mission progress is guaranteed in this campaign regardless of battle score. Good luck in the crossing Erwin.

I put up a couple of shots in my review of this campaign at SimHQ and here they are

This wide shot shows the scale of the final battle at the half-way point. Battalion commanders surely drink a lot of coffee.

 

This shot shows what played out like a white-flag ruse. Trees are turned off. The two soldiers who surrendered were visible to me, but not the one laying down with the LMG. Thinking the position was secure I advanced to cross the open ground beyond (you can see the smoke deployed in anticipation), but as my troops neared the captured soldiers the hidden Ivan opened fire and you see the damage he's done. The bastage.

 

 

 

 

[landser]

Not that anyone but me was wondering.... I bought the engine 4 upgrade, applied it, and then reloaded the last turn of the campaign. F/O kills were not displayed.

[danfrodo]

thanks for this excellent thread, Lanser.  I just started Blunting the Spear based on the fun you've had.  Just ~20 minutes into first battle.  

 

[landser]

Good luck Danfrodo, it's a beast of a campaign. It took me about 25 days to complete it, and that with playing a few hours each day aside from maybe two or three when real life intervened. Excellent maps, a strong opponent and long-range gunnery duels. What's not to like right?

For me the keys are

-- Force preservation. With a core force this is vital.

-- Ammo conservation.  With only a single resupply before the final battle, prudent expenditure of ammunition, particularly mortar, tank and smoke ammo, is a necessity. You can, however, freely expend your artillery.

-- Planning. With the maps so large and open it presents some interesting challenges, particularly regarding LOS and movement. I was surprised when Bozowans said that he had walked his infantry across the map in the third mission. I felt compelled to truck/track my infantry around the maps. This is what I've been talking about when saying the campaign imparts a distinctly operational feel. The right-flank force has halftracks, but the left flank force has trucks, and these require a more delicate approach. I found that getting my infantry where I needed them, safely and in a timely manner was one of the main challenges of the campaign

Terrain analysis is always crucial, and especially so on open maps with long fields of fire. Not only to find those good spots for your heavy weapons, but for routes of movement.

-- Not that I wasn't already aware, but it became clear in the first mission that the German optical advantage was something that could be exploited. Aside from the nightmare second minute in the third mission (the one where I lost basically the starting Panther platoon and then started over) I attempted to use keyholing, concentration and range on my side. I tried to inititate armored combat outside 1500m when possible. At this range the German armor has an advantage. In some of the screenshots I've posted if you look at my armor they are often grouped tightly together by platoon. In the 'wide shot' of the final battle you can see a platoon of Panthers at the bottom left-center of the shot. I used this 'box' formation a lot. Because in Combat Mission one tank's field of fire isn't affected by another tank directly in front, I like to use this formation to always have two barrels on the same line, one behind the other, so if the front tank could see a target, the tank behind can also see it and establish a fire superiority at the outset of any engagement. Sorta gamey, as in real-life the rear tank would be blocked. But in CM it works very well.

Edited October 21, 2019 by landser

[danfrodo]

Great tips, thanks.  I played the big Gog & Magog scenario recently and could definitely see the advantage of german optics and I am using it in battle #1.  T34-85 tanks are quite good but at these long ranges they are at quite a disadvantage.  If one of my Pz4s gets hit it would be smashed but T34s are rarely even able to return fire since they can't see me well enough

I am really worried about my core force, so I am being cautious, though will big map and short time (80 minutes) I will need to keep moving forward.  Good to know I can use the artillery freely.  I will probably be interrupted in this campaign by release of a new toy, meaning the new CMFI module, but will finish sooner or later.

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, danfrodo said:

thanks for this excellent thread, Lanser.  I just started Blunting the Spear based on the fun you've had.  Just ~20 minutes into first battle.  

 

I hope that you have a lot of fun with it.

[landser]

Yes, it looks like we generated a little interest in this classic Red Thunder campaign. That's cool, and I hope the players just starting on it post some reports of their progress. I doubt anyone needs my advice, but I'm always happy to give it when asked (but usually when not asked). Like Warts said, have fun and keep your heads down

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, landser said:

You can, however, freely expend your artillery.

Good to know.  That is not made clear in the briefing.

 

4 hours ago, landser said:

I like to use this formation to always have two barrels on the same line, one behind the other, so if the front tank could see a target, the tank behind can also see it and establish a fire superiority at the outset of any engagement.

This has been the default game formation since CM1 days.  However, in CM2 that also means that an enemy hit on the lead tank can easily take out both tanks (plus any other vehicles situated along that line).

 

***SPOILERS***

 

After the T34 platoon on the left flank is killed, the path to the river on that flank is pretty open.  However, the road thru the trees next to the RR track is a bear.  Despite having a couple of tanks, 2 Stummels and two HT's pouring area fire at the foxholes, it takes time to winkle the enemy out.  (I hour 20 minutes for this scenario goes too fast.)  When you do, the enemy run back to the west (the river) and their friendly lines. 

In this action, have suffered half a dozen inf casualties - half via friendly fire.     The 75mm HE expl)osions caused by the Stummels seem to have a bad effect a dozen or more meters away on my own guys (who I thought I had placed safely far away from the line of fire).  Am at the 50 minute to go mark and I will send the left flank company of tanks and company of inf to force a river crossing with arty support while one platoon of tanks and inf plus recon grind away at the road and foxholes. One may have overwhelming force available but getting it deployed where it's needed is a challenge.  

I coulda, shoulda, woulda placed a TRP on that area of the woods road.  But, placing TRP's is always a challenge as I hate placing em and then never having to use em.  So, I put all 5 around the town and river for the inevitable crossing.

[landser]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

 in CM2 that also means that an enemy hit on the lead tank can easily take out both tanks (plus any other vehicles situated along that line).

Good point, I saw a screenshot someone posted here recently where one round knocked out like three tanks. One more thing to consider innit? That would serve me right anyway

[landser]

It was armored cars and a haltrack, but still

 

 

[Warts 'n' all]

Losing two to one shot from a T34 was annoying enough for me.

[Erwin]

We know that CM2 models the round as it flies to wherever and if it hits an object one can see ricochets.  However, I wonder if the game models deflection of rounds that then go on to make a kill.  In landser's example above, one would think that the round could have been deflected by one or more of of the first vehicles hit rather than going on its way in a straight line.

We often see infantry hit by objects that we do not see.  We assume that deflected bullets and shrapnel can get deflected and travel great distances to hit a trooper.  

[landser]

Such an occurrence would be regrettable

It hasn't happened to me, but I suppose if you play enough eventually it will as Warts can obviously attest. I assume that when the penetration and exit happen that the kinetic properties of the round are appropriately affected? While I can see punching through a number of lightly armored vehicles as shown in that screenshot, how likely is it that a round (in the 76/85 mm class) could defeat the frontal armor on two or more main battle tanks?  When it happened to you Warts, what were the particulars? What vehicles were hit with what type of gun at what range and where were they each struck?

I think I would abandon the box formation if I encountered 122/152mm guns, as I reckon this sort of scenario increases in probability as the caliber increases.

I'm compulsive about clearing my flanks, but this is a more likely thing I think, two tanks abreast being struck by a flanking shot against their side armor (which the box formation is equally vulnerable to). The third battle in this campaign, Dybow Kolonia, was a textbook example of the need to clear the flanks along the line of advance of your main body. Even still, I lost one Panther to a T-34 flanking shot from the left side. But in general I pushed infantry and a few tanks up both sides of the map before advancing my armor enmasse up the center. The enemy armor is so diabolically positioned in this campaign that it's essential to get the infantry involved and get the spots on this well-concealed armor. And since it's AI it's not usually too difficult to then outflank these tanks and take them out. A human would have seen the movement to outflank and reacted accordingly. But the AI doesn't co-ordinate in the same sense, where a scout spots armor moving around the flank, relays this info to the threatened tank who repositions to meet it or escape it. That tank just sits there dutifully watching it's assigned sector. This happened time and again in this campaign, especially in the second, third and fifth battles for me. Find, outflank, shoot 'em in the ass. But without infantry involved this is too dangerous, you need to be sure that the outflankers aren't outflanked and drive themselves in to a vulnerable position.

Edited October 22, 2019 by landser

[Warts 'n' all]

The most recent event I was describing took place in the Ciemne mission, although I have had a couple of double hits in the past. In this case it was two half-tracks that had just had the infantry dismount. So they were side on to the tank, very close to one another, and of course stationary. I can't remember exactly how far away the T34 was, but the joint explosions killed or wounded most of the dismounted troops. I was NOT happy.