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zmoney

Experience levels

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How does everyone else judge experience levels? Mine is as follows:

Conscript= taken off the street, handed a gun, shown how to load, aim, shoot.

Green= received some weapons or vehicle training but very minimal or a conscript with a little combat experience.

Regular= Received basic training in a modern military unit. Proficient with their equipment. Or conscript with extensive combat or green with some combat.

Veteran= Received basic training and in unit training with their team/squad/platoon/company/battalion etc. Very proficient with their equipment and good at their jobs. Very well trained. Or combat experience con/green/reg.

The reason I bring this up is because it drives me nuts when I see a western military force in a campaign or scenario etc with green or conscript troops (possibly the Russians as well but I am not familiar with their training requirements). IMO US forces should be nothing lower than reg and most likely vet. Not sure about the Ukrainian or Russians but I can see some instances where it’d be believable to see conscript infantry and green vehicle crews for the Russians and Ukrainians.

 

So what does everyone else think? 

Edited by zmoney
Grammar

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for modern, yes, that is about right. NATO forces are well trained, so should normally be regular/veteran, unless you want to simulate national guard or reserve units.

for Russian/Ukranian, well that opens up a can of worms…:)

note you can also play around with leadership factors to fine tune experience level, for example a regular unit with a -1 modifier will act more like a green unit, while a regular with a +1 will act more like a veteran unit.

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On 9/13/2019 at 6:24 AM, zmoney said:

How does everyone else judge experience levels? Mine is as follows:

Conscript= taken off the street, handed a gun, shown how to load, aim, shoot.

Green= received some weapons or vehicle training but very minimal or a conscript with a little combat experience.

Regular= Received basic training in a modern military unit. Proficient with their equipment. Or conscript with extensive combat or green with some combat.

Veteran= Received basic training and in unit training with their team/squad/platoon/company/battalion etc. Very proficient with their equipment and good at their jobs. Very well trained. Or combat experience con/green/reg.

The reason I bring this up is because it drives me nuts when I see a western military force in a campaign or scenario etc with green or conscript troops (possibly the Russians as well but I am not familiar with their training requirements). IMO US forces should be nothing lower than reg and most likely vet. Not sure about the Ukrainian or Russians but I can see some instances where it’d be believable to see conscript infantry and green vehicle crews for the Russians and Ukrainians.

 

So what does everyone else think? 

the manuel is very clear on the subject

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2 hours ago, grungar said:

the manuel is very clear on the subject

What does it say? My main point is Western troops, ie US, Brits, Germans, Dutch etc should probably be nothing lower than regulars.

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IMHO, you need to combine a unit's experience (Conscript to Elite) & Training (-2 to +2) and motivation (Poor to Fanatic), so there are conscripts & conscripts:

I might model 'patriotic volunteers' (of whichever side) in CM:BS as Conscript, 0, High.....Conscripted troops so with absolutely no battlefield experience, but reasonably well trained and enthusiastic for the fight.

However if we were talking about a unit conscripted by ISIS or similar unit in CM:SF I'd probably be looking at Conscript, -2, Poor.....Generally unwilling to risk themselves for the cause and keen to surrender at the first opportunity (which, as demonstrated by @MOS:96B2P, they can easily be induced to do in game).

42 minutes ago, zmoney said:

My main point is Western troops, ie US, Brits, Germans, Dutch etc should probably be nothing lower than regulars.

That depends if the wars they trigger got big enough to require conscription.....If they did, I'd be looking at Conscript, -1, Low, to reflect the lack of preexisting training structures for such large numbers of men and the general lack of enthusiasm for such a scenario amongst the populations of those nations.  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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That was actually a standing BFC order, I recall, during the scenario making process. Nobody in the developed nations should be below 'regulars'. Though perhaps the 2007 timeframe CMSF2 Germans might qualify for 'green' with their spotty training and low enthusiasm for foreign adventures. Post-Ukraine invasion Germany would have picked up the training pace a bit. ;)

US Airborne in Normandy was highly trained to the point of 'fanatic' but had never fired a shot in anger. They suffered so horrendously in Normandy that they were pretty much rendered 'combat ineffective' as a force and were withdrawn to be rebuilt. 'Fanatic' in CM has its downside. Instead of bugging-out of a tight situation to fight another day they're liable to stand their ground and die in place.

Training and experience levels can be mix-and-match. I just built a scenario for (redacted) with the (redacted) side healthy, high morale and 'green' while their opponents were weakened, low morale veterans with ammo shortage issues.

A lot of uncons in recent wars are veterans of other conflicts turned mercenary, or perhaps had had at least gone through their term of service as a draftee when young. Most of the ISIS fighter killed in the liberation of Mosel were said to be Russian.

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Given that campaigns can be thought of as taking place over several months (and there could well have been additional battles between the ones depicted in a campaign) it would be nice in CM3 to have the option a campaign designer of enabling units to gain experience over several battles.  

It would add to the gameplay fun to have at least some units go from a low to a higher experience level as a result of several battles and become the ones to watch and/or give the toughest assignments to.

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That can kind of be done manually, with trickery in the core units file, but it only really works reliably for a single small unit.....A narrative campaign about a single platoon might be doable and TBH CM:A would probably be the best game to do it with as it has a fourteen year calendar!

PS - This is kind of what I'm doing with Abdul Gul's war.....I'm not increasing the various units' experience, but characters Abdul Gul knows or encounter along his journey may later show up as permanent (assuming the player doesn't get them killed) members of his band (and the larger Mujahideen organization surrounding it).  Mohammed, Abdul Gul's son, is a teenage Spy unit in the very first scenario, but has the potential to return as a Mujahideen commander later in the story, according to the players choices.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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23 hours ago, zmoney said:

What does it say? My main point is Western troops, ie US, Brits, Germans, Dutch etc should probably be nothing lower than regulars.

      for instance the manuel says that regs are trained but have little combat experience...how this measures in the game BF has that kinda thing classified.      There are a lot of green troops in the ww2 titles because imo those troops represent fresh replacements or rear erea personnel to replace heavy casusalties sustained. the allies just did not have that many full strength regiments with reliable troops as the war progressed. 

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