Artillery requests

[LiveNoMore]

Is there a chart someplace that has all the factors impacting on wait times for artillery strikes? I'm trying to add  late arriving artillery support for the Germans and I need to know how long the average wait would be from when the spotter calls for it and when it arrives. 

 

Thanks,

LiveNoMore

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, LiveNoMore said:

I'm trying to add  late arriving artillery support for the Germans and I need to know how long the average wait would be from when the spotter calls for it and when it arrives. 

Depends on: 

1. What level of difficulty you are playing at.

2. How long it takes the firing battery to get rounds in the air. This is effected by the experience level of the battery and the caliber of their weapon.

3. How long it takes for the spotter to see a spotting round and call in corrections, then how many corrections need to be made before "fire for effect" can be called for.

There may be an extra factor or two, but those are what come immediately to mind. As far as what a player can reliably expect, the matter is largely by guess and by gosh, but the more experience you have the better your guesses are likely to be, but in the end there is an ineradicable factor of chance involved.

Michael

[LiveNoMore]

Thanks Michael. I know about the soft factors affecting the delivery time. I was hoping for a general list of each artillery unit and their range.  I have a scenario dealing with the battle for Graignes on D-Day. The Germans finally got a battery in position late in the day. I needed an approximate time for it to become effective.

[Combatintman]

4 hours ago, LiveNoMore said:

Thanks Michael. I know about the soft factors affecting the delivery time. I was hoping for a general list of each artillery unit and their range.  I have a scenario dealing with the battle for Graignes on D-Day. The Germans finally got a battery in position late in the day. I needed an approximate time for it to become effective.

To add to @Michael Emryslist, the level of experience and motivation of the observer and the amount of suppression of the observer. There's also the command relationship between the firing unit and the observing unit to consider. I haven't fiddled with CMBN since I did my Assault on Port Cros scenario, but ISTR that the naval guns took 8 minutes to land rounds on target from initial call for fire. I will caveat that by saying that the observers were from the First Special Service Force so will have had high motivation and either the top or second top experience rating and the rounds were being called onto TRPs. I don't think any of the observers in my tests were suppressed. Someone will have better test data than me ( @MOS:96B2Pis generally a good bet for this) but a ballpark planning figure in game for average tube artillery called in by an average observer with an appropriate C2 link would be in the order of about 10-15 minutes from call for fire to rounds on target. In the absence of better figures for the time being, set the artillery unit to arrive as a reinforcement 10-15 minutes before you need it to get the effect that you want to achieve, which I'm assuming is for that battery to put rounds down as close to the historical time as possible.

[MOS:96B2P]

19 hours ago, LiveNoMore said:

Is there a chart someplace that has all the factors impacting on wait times for artillery strikes? I'm trying to add  late arriving artillery support for the Germans and I need to know how long the average wait would be from when the spotter calls for it and when it arrives. 

 

12 hours ago, LiveNoMore said:

I was hoping for a general list of each artillery unit and their range.  The Germans finally got a battery in position late in the day. I needed an approximate time for it to become effective.

I think what @Combatintman said above is what you are probably looking for.  I have some equipment cards I made on a Word Document for artillery.  I only did this for artillery that I use often in PBEM etc.  I like the 105mm for their cost (when selecting from the CM purchase screen.  Not RL), ammo supply and ability to fire smoke.  So I included part of an equipment card for German 105s as an example below.  I don't know what German artillery you are going to use in your scenario.  I hope the information is understandable after the cutting and pasting (I removed the classified parts for PBEM OpSec) .  

You asked for a list of each artillery unit and the range.  For the Real Life (RL) range that info is available in the Combat Mission (CMBN) game manual (not to be confused with the 4.0 engine manual).  The game manual also lists all the assets in the game with the RL stats. 

However for game purposes almost all the artillery assets can range an entire Combat Mission map.  There are a few exceptions such as a light mortar on a huge map.  So, in game terms the range may not matter unless I just misunderstood what you were after.   

The below chart/card shows the Fire For Effect times when using a HQ or FO with and without TRPs.  Each HQ & FO are broken down from Elite to Conscript.  The last time I updated the card was March 2017.  As far as I know the FFE times for CMBN are still accurate. 

The crater size is just to help identify what the OpFor is shooting back with (one of the games within a game).      

GERMAN WWII ARTILLERY CARD

 

Equipment:  Howitzer Section Medium 3x105mm Howitzer (Wespe)

Dates Available: All available WWII dates.

TOE Location: On the purchase screen: Formations, German Army, Artillery, Self-Propelled Howitzer Section [medium].

Off Map Ammo: 96 HE, 30 Smoke1, Yes Personnel Airburst                                                                         Crater Size: Light, Medium, Heavy, Super

FFE Time

HQElite

HQCrack

HQVet.

HQReg.

HQGrn.

HQCons.

F/OElite

F/OCrack

F/OVet.

F/OReg.

F/OGrn.

F/OCons.

LOS

13Min.

13Min.

13Min.

14Min.

16Min.

19Min.

8Min.

8Min.

8Min.

9Min.

10Min.

13Min.

TRP

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

Notes: 1) The 30 smoke are part of the 96HE total and will be fired with the HE rounds during a fire mission (even if duration is less than maximum).

 

Equipment:  Howitzer Battery Medium 4x105mm Howitzer

Dates Available: All available WWII dates.

TOE Location: On the purchase screen: Formations, German Army, Artillery Battery [medium].

Off Map Ammo: 140 HE, 40 Smoke1, Yes Personnel Airburst                                                                       Crater Size: Light, Medium, Heavy, Super

FFE Time

HQElite

HQCrack

HQVet.

HQReg.

HQGrn.

HQCons.

F/OElite

F/OCrack

F/OVet.

F/OReg.

F/OGrn.

F/OCons.

LOS

14Min.

14Min.

14Min.

15Min.

17Min.

20Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

11Min.

14Min.

TRP

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

9Min.

10Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

5Min.

Notes: 1) The 40 smoke are part of the 140HE total and will be fired with the HE rounds during a fire mission (even if duration is less than maximum).

Last Update: 7 March 2017

EDIT:  On my computer I had to expand the browser window to see the right side of the card / chart after I posted. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by MOS:96B2P

[LiveNoMore]

Thanks all! The Germans managed to get a couple 88 Flak guns into position. So this is what I will be using. I did my own experiment and found that the 88 takes from 11 to 15 minutes depending on who is calling it in. 

 

Thanks again!

[Michael Emrys]

Another factor effecting delay between making the initial call, is the proximity on the organizational chart the calling unit and firing unit. If the firing unit is part of the same formation as the calling unit, times go quicker. If not, then the request has to go up the ladder to a higher authority and then back down to the firing unit. All this takes time. If comms are not up to snuff or are being overloaded, it can take a lot of time.

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

4 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

 If comms are not up to snuff 

Aitchoo!

[Bulletpoint]

19 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I have some equipment cards I made on a Word Document for artillery.  I only did this for artillery that I use often in PBEM etc. 

You're a fount of good information. Thanks for sharing.

[Tinyb]

Since I began playing the CM series, I have always believed that the delay time, especially in cases where the Artillery / Mortar asset are stated as being directly in Support of a particular unit, are too long.  If your playing a scenario which lasts 40 mins and the delay is 10 - 12 mins, its one quarter of the total time.  I was part of a FOO/MFC (forward Observation/Mortar Fire Controller) team myself and if you have Artillery or Mortars in direct Support, they are there, waiting for the your fire Order.   If a delay of 10 - 12 mins and in certain circumstances within the game, even longer, that support would not be considered in Direct Support to you.  This sounds really negative, it is not intended to be so, its something that's frustrated me through the playing process. 

[Vet 0369]

12 hours ago, Tinyb said:

Since I began playing the CM series, I have always believed that the delay time, especially in cases where the Artillery / Mortar asset are stated as being directly in Support of a particular unit, are too long.  If your playing a scenario which lasts 40 mins and the delay is 10 - 12 mins, its one quarter of the total time.  I was part of a FOO/MFC (forward Observation/Mortar Fire Controller) team myself and if you have Artillery or Mortars in direct Support, they are there, waiting for the your fire Order.   If a delay of 10 - 12 mins and in certain circumstances within the game, even longer, that support would not be considered in Direct Support to you.  This sounds really negative, it is not intended to be so, its something that's frustrated me through the playing process. 

Thank you for your direct experience input. It is welcomed. Although I had a section of 60mm mortars (three guns) in the USMCR in the mid to late 70’s, I  have absolutely no experience with the FO’s, so my timing experiences were different than yours. One thing that sometimes colors my perceptions in the game, is that my experiences are based on “modern day” fire missions being called in by FOs using radios either on the ground or by aerial, and the mission directors using computers to do the plot. I sometimes forget that FOs and those plotting the missions didn’t have those aids except in a rudimentary form, so it took much longer to call in a request for a mission and to plot it before the first splash for adjustment. The CM families are so well researched (and trust me, these forums would light up like a Christmas tree if they were inaccurate) that I tend to accept things, such as fire mission times, at face value. I just don’t question it.

[MikeyD]

I rarely play the game above 'Warrior' level due to  the big hit you take to call-in times when you play 'Elite' and 'Iron'. I'd happily play Iron if all the scenarios were twice as long and I could afford to sit and wait for my artillery to show up.

[Vet 0369]

I tend to call in an initial fire mission after I read the scenario briefing and do a visual recon of the map. I look on that initial fire mission as a prep fire mission. It’s delivered within one minute of hitting the start button. All subsequent fire missions I see as being opportunity missions and know that they’ll take a significant amount of time.

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I rarely play the game above 'Warrior' level due to  the big hit you take to call-in times when you play 'Elite' and 'Iron'. I'd happily play Iron if all the scenarios were twice as long and I could afford to sit and wait for my artillery to show up.

I play at the Veteran level, which is a little like kindergarten I suppose, so my waits are even shorter. But I still get frustrated when a nice arty ambush that I had plotted doesn't arrive until its intended target has moved out of the area. As a consequence, I try to plot strikes only against units that look like they are pretty well settled in. I know that plotting a strike for some area where you don't want the enemy to go is a viable tactic, but I haven't had much in the way of practicing that yet. Meanwhile, I rely less on artillery and more on direct fire weaponry. Tanks may not be the perfect answer—they have their vulnerabilities too—but I've managed to get an awful lot of mileage out of them.

Michael

[Erwin]

These are some of the charts I found:

German Artillery Characteristics (CMBN)

 

GERMAN LIGHT/MEDIUM ARTILLERY			81mm Mortar	120mm Mortar	75mm Inf Gun	150mm Inf Gun	75mm Howitzer	105mm Howitzer	150mm Howitzer
Barrels			2	2	2	2	4	4	4
HE Rounds			100	60	70	50	140	140	120
Smoke Rounds			8	0	20	10	40	40	40
FAO Response Time (mins)		Normal	6	6	8	8	8	8	8
		TRP	3	3	4	4	5	5	5
HQ Response Time (mins)		Normal	8	8	13	13	13	13	13
		TRP	4	4	8	8	9	9	9
Mission	Harassrnds/min	p/Barrel	3.3	2.1	1.8	0.9	1.8	1.3	0.9
		p/Unit	6.7	4.1	3.6	1.8	7.2	5.4	3.6
		Max	15min	15min	20min	18min	20min	26min	34min
	Shortrnds/min	p/Barrel	10.0	4.0	2.7	1.4	2.7	2.0	1.3
		p/Unit	20.0	8.0	5.4	2.7	10.8	8.1	5.4
		Max	5min	8min	13min	19min	13min	17min	22min
	Mediumrnds/min	p/Barrel	20.0	5.0	4.4	2.2	4.4	3.2	2.1
		p/Unit	40.0	10.0	8.8	4.3	17.5	12.7	8.4
		Max	2.5mins	5mins	8min	12min	8min	11min	14min
	Heavyrnds/min	p/Barrel	25.0	5.0	4.4	2.2	4.4	3.2	2.1
		p/Unit	50.0	10.0	8.8	4.3	17.5	12.7	8.4
		Max	2min	5min	8min	12min	8min	11min	14min
Duration	Quick	p/barrel	4-7	3-4	2-3	2-3	2-3	2-3	2-3
	Short	p/barrel	11-16	8-11	5-10	5-8	5-10	5-10	5-8
	Medium	p/barrel	27-32	14-17	11-16	8-11	11-16	9-14	8-11
	Long	p/barrel	41-53	23-30	20-28	15-18	22-28	19-24	15-18
	Maximum	p/barrel	100	60	70	50	140	140	120
GERMAN HEAVY ARTILLERY			210mm Howitzer	170mm Gun	159mm Nbwfr	215mm Nbwfr	280mm Nbwfr	301mm Nbwfr	88mm Flak
Barrels			4	4	6x6	6x5	6x5	6x5	4
HE Rounds			80	100	180	150	108	108	80
Smoke Rounds			0	0	72	0	0	0	0
FAO Response Time (mins)		Normal	21	12	12	12	12	12	12
		TRP	17	9	9	9	9	9	9
HQ Response Time (mins)		Normal	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a
		TRP	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a
Mission	Harassrnds/min	p/Barrel	0.2	0.4	1.0	0.8	0.6	0.6	1.1
		p/Unit	0.9	1.6	5.8	4.5	3.6	3.6	4.2
		Max	89min	62min	31min	33min	30min	30min	19min
	Shortrnds/min	p/Barrel	0.3	0.6	1.5	1.1	0.9	0.9	1.6
		p/Unit	1.4	2.4	8.8	6.8	5.4	5.4	6.3
		Max	59min	41min	21min	22min	20min	20min	13min
	Mediumrnds/min	p/Barrel	0.6	1.3	4.4	3.4	2.7	2.7	3.0
		p/Unit	2.5	5.1	26.3	20.5	16.2	16.2	11.9
		Max	32min	20min	7min	7min	7min	7min	7min
	Heavyrnds/min	p/Barrel	0.6	1.3	4.4	3.4	2.7	2.7	3.0
		p/Unit	2.5	5.1	26.3	20.5	16.2	16.2	11.9
		Max	32min	20min	7min	7min	7min	7min	7min
Duration	Quick	p/barrel	1	1	6	6	6	6	2
	Short	p/barrel			36
	Medium	p/barrel			36-72
	Long	p/barrel			72
	Maximum	p/barrel	80	100	180	150	108	108	80

NOTES:

MISSION = RATE OF FIRE

· p/barrel = rounds fired per min per single barrel at selected rate of fire i.e. Harass

 

 

· p/unit = rounds fired per complete unit i.e. all barrels in action

· Max = time to expend all rounds when firing all barrels at selected rate of fire

· Apart from 81mm Mortar then all other weapons appear to have the same rate of fire for Medium and Heavy... Maybe further testing needed

DURATION = TOTAL ROUNDS PER MISSION

· p/barrel = rounds fired per barrel over duration of mission. Nebelwerfers fire by multiples of its salvo.

 

CMBN US Artillery Characteristics

Rate of fire is 1 round per x seconds.

Duration is in rounds, or minutes if m suffix.

 

US 60mm M2 mortar onmap

Mission:             Harass     |     Light      |     Medium     |     Heavy

Rate of fire:          18       |       6        |       3        |       2

Duration:         Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M  

Rounds:           6    7    7m  |  3    20   30  |  3    19   24  |  3    16

 

US 81mm M1 mortar onmap

Mission:             Harass     |     Light      |     Medium     |     Heavy

Rate of fire:          18       |       6        |       3        |       2

Duration:         Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M  

Rounds:           5    10   15  |  6    10   28  |  3    10   25  |  6    12   22+

 

US 105mm M2A1 Howitzer

Mission:             Harass     |     Light      |     Medium     |     Heavy

Rate of fire:        46-48      |     28-32      |     16-19      |     10-12

Duration:         Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M   |  Q    S    M  

Rounds:           3    6    14  |  2    7    12  |  3    6    12  |  2    6    12

 

There is more.  But, everything I have was sent to Bootie for CMMODS IV.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Erwin

[Bulletpoint]

On 9/6/2019 at 5:58 AM, Michael Emrys said:

I play at the Veteran level, which is a little like kindergarten I suppose

No, it's not kindergarten. Your wait times get shorter, but so do your opponent's. Even if it's the computer you're playing against.

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Your wait times get shorter, but so do your opponent's. Even if it's the computer you're playing against.

I knew that I got my arty faster compared to the more stringent modes of play, but was unaware that the computer opponent got the same bonus. That's fair, I suppose.

Michael

Edited September 21, 2019 by Michael Emrys

[Boo Radley]

Emrys is still alive and not confined to a rubber room somewhere? Someone obviously slipped up!

[Hiram Sedai]

seems Emrys got loose. 

[Boo Radley]

9 minutes ago, Hiram Sedai said:

seems Emrys got loose. 

A loose Emrys? Try some Immodium AD.

[landser]

On 9/5/2019 at 5:50 PM, MikeyD said:

I rarely play the game above 'Warrior' level due to  the big hit you take to call-in times when you play 'Elite' and 'Iron'. I'd happily play Iron if all the scenarios were twice as long and I could afford to sit and wait for my artillery to show up.

+1 and sums up my thoughts succinctly and I've said here before that I would always play Iron if the on-call times were detached from the skill level setting. I hope that CMx3 goes this route. But still, I play on higher levels sometimes because I like how the spotting works. But in the largest scenarios and campaigns I tend to bump it down. A campaign like Devil's Descent though is always played on Iron.

 

On 9/21/2019 at 12:33 PM, Bulletpoint said:

No, it's not kindergarten. Your wait times get shorter, but so do your opponent's. Even if it's the computer you're playing against.

Right, these aren't difficulty levels in the traditional sense, and in some ways it's more difficult at the lower settings, especially when you're attacking, because as Bulletpoint said, the enemy can drop his fire missions more quickly, more reactively, and increasing the odds your men get caught in it.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by landser

[SimpleSimon]

9 hours ago, landser said:

+1 and sums up my thoughts succinctly and I've said here before that I would always play Iron if the on-call times were detached from the skill level setting. I hope that CMx3 goes this route. But still, I play on higher levels sometimes because I like how the spotting works. But in the largest scenarios and campaigns I tend to bump it down. A campaign like Devil's Descent though is always played on Iron.

One thing I've found that helps missions is to chose area bombardment for Field Guns and Howitzers and allow them a wide area so that their corresponding tolerance for error is much wider. Shots end up in the selected area more easily and you can get to business sooner. Point bombardment in CMWW2 only really works if the FO has an entirely unobstructed line of sight. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by SimpleSimon