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Posted (edited)
On 8/18/2019 at 11:50 PM, IanL said:

True the chart doesn't tell you anything about the differences. The scanner doesn't have much more than basic map info.

Really though no one needs to know any of this to have fun with the battles.

Part of the fun is to try other branches in the campaign, so I wanted to know what decisions would lead me to the open version of the final battle, in case I go back and play through the campaign a third time.

But maybe you mean I could just unpack the campaign and pick the battles I want to try out? That's an option too, I guess.

Edited by Bulletpoint

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The route you end up taking is based mainly on your results, as indicated by..... ToV ... MiV.... Dr.

Sometimes a designer will create missions that will lead to a certain path that the player will be told about in the briefing, in this particular campaign the mission "Command Decisions" fills that role.

If you would like to pick up some ideas on how to get to the other version of "To the Meuse", I would suggest that you take a look at the youtube series produced by Jamies Games. In the meantime I would be interested to see a list of the results you achieved that led to you getting the final battle that you faced.

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5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Part of the fun is to try other branches in the campaign, so I wanted to know what decisions would lead me to the open version of the final battle, in case I go back and play through the campaign a third time.

But maybe you mean I could just unpack the campaign and pick the battles I want to try out? That's an option too, I guess.

No, I just meant that loosing a battle to try another branch doesn't sound particularly fun. At least not to me.

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8 minutes ago, IanL said:

No, I just meant that loosing a battle to try another branch doesn't sound particularly fun. At least not to me.

But that's exactly what you have to do in this campaign; in the missions that are "command decisions" you have to choose not to take certain objectives even though you could, in order to signal your intents to choose one path or another. Would be better if the game had a simple player choice interface between missions, but this is what we have to work with...

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2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

But that's exactly what you have to do in this campaign; in the missions that are "command decisions" you have to choose not to take certain objectives even though you could,

Oh yeah that makes sense. Sorry I have never played the campaign (not much time for single player play) so I didn't realize that there were choice missions.

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8 minutes ago, IanL said:

Sorry I have never played the campaign

I'd particularly recommend this one Ian, the maps are astounding, if you are familiar with the battlefield you'll recognise them in an instant.  B)

On the downside some of the buildings on those maps are not always quite so accessible as they might appear.....Causing me to rage quit my last run after an entire platoon took very novel, but ultimately suicidal, routes to bypass doors that were blocked by adjacent terrain.  :(

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14 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

bypass doors that were blocked by adjacent terrain.  :(

I hate it when that happens. Even worse in a campaign since it is not so easily fixed.

Thanks for the recommendation. Honestly I'm not sure I'll get there but I do appreciate it.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, IanL said:

I hate it when that happens. Even worse in a campaign since it is not so easily fixed.

It's one of the main reasons I got into doing what I do on my MOUT maps, simply because there is no way for the player to know in advance if doors will function.  IMHO the onus is on the designer to ensure that they do, but this is a much more difficult proposition when making a historical map based on a template than it is for my fictional ones.

I've since rationalised what happened to me in KG Peiper as those buildings were part of the US defence, it's perfectly reasonable to assume the Americans had barricaded them and I did have engineers available. 

However there was no way for me to know that without playing it.  If I were tweaking the map myself I might remove a few of the doors blow open a couple of the buildings and also place some fortifications like sandbags to imply the buildings are part of the defences, but hindsight is always 20/20. 

I still highly recommend it, it is probably the most historically immersive campaign I've played.....As soon as you see the maps you are there (& it's cold & it's wet & it's miserable).  B)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

IMHO the onus is on the designer to ensure that they do

Agreed. As you know it is hard to get that perfect but I agree designers should be considering that. It is one of the things I "proof read" when looking at a map or scenario. Some of the issues you can see in 3D preview if you know the kind of thing to look for.

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In this instance (as I recall, my PC's not CM-worthy right now) part of the issue is modular buildings, which really look the part, but don't give the designer the option to adjust the door/window configuration in the way that you can with modular buildings.....It's just one of the compromises one has to consider when building maps.

Two days without CM and I'm starting to suffer severe withdrawal symptoms, can't even 'quickly check something in the editor' right now.....God what will I do with myself for another 24hrs?  :wacko:

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Posted (edited)

The maps that I did (Stavelot and Noville, and the Aachen ones off the top of my head) have been made to the specifications of period maps. There is of course some license there (roads, mainly) but I've tried to keep things "historical" as much as the engine allows.

Where you see attached houses, my take is that these are attached, separate residences unless a "special" structure (generally named on the map). Any large, open structure is done with adjoining doors or open throughout.

There are generally no through doors in my maps with adjoined structures (don't remember adding random ones, and don't think I would do that randomly unless on my 8th hour of clicking) in these residences, as is the case with any apartment/shared space structure. I try to allow enough access points throughout via doors.

There is only so much clicking I can do on those master maps, unfortunately (and this is a very mild case compared to...other things). The scenario designer can certainly adapt them to add doors throughout, but I'd personally find that level of access unrealistic.

Edited by benpark

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All very true.

I was more talking about when a terrain feature - usually elevation - inadvertently renders a door useless. Those issues can often be spotted by inspection.

Valid points about internal doors though. If you walk through my neighbourhood there are a lot of town homes. I am pretty sure none of them have doors between the units ;) so you have to chose where you place the doors.

Also, downtown there are very few buildings that don't have more than one way out - even the small ones that have been build around. There are more than a few maps where I have said to my self - how does this business take deliveries? Or let the dish-washing staff take their smoke breaks cause it sure ain't out on that pretty cobble stone street across form the shops. :)

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Posted (edited)

Right- some of the hilly terrain in FB played havoc with the door placement, particularly the Independent structures. Those delivery trucks have good breaks.

If you see a few key spots where there are issues on the maps I did, let me know where. Not sure I can fix it "officially", but I'll be on the lookout for other, similar instances.

Other particular cities are luckily very flat. But with so many more doors.

Edited by benpark

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1 hour ago, IanL said:

inadvertently renders a door useless. Those issues can often be spotted by inspection

That was what got me.....I can't make a snapshot of the exact location right now, but I will once I'm back up & running (it was a few missions in, bottom of the hill in Stavelot I think).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, benpark said:

 the Aachen ones off the top of my head) have been made to the specifications of period maps. .

I think that the Aaachen maps are a brilliant piece of work. The only drawback building wise is that some of the Dutch style buildings that are used in Final Blitzkrieg do have a door entry problem that came across from MG. But, the German apartment blocks laid out around a courtyard are spot on. And fighting my way through them was a lot of fun.

I agree with the black feline from the colonies that elevation does create a problem with some doors during in CMFB, but short of creating a little piece of flat land for each building to stand on I'm not sure what else a map maker can do. Also, I have seen photos of houses in the Ardennes that have the front door on one floor, and the back door on the floor above to take the slope into account.

Edited by Warts 'n' all

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I agree with the black feline from the colonies that elevation does create a problem with some doors during in CMFB, but short of creating a little piece of flat land for each building to stand on I'm not sure what else a map maker can do.

Yup that's the crux of it, one either compromises with ditchlocked clusters, which can work OK, but just won't for certain terrain, or one puts up with it deleting doors where possible to reduce the chances of it occurring.

Actually from what I recall of the map in question a couple of lengths of barbed wire outside the buildings in question might be the simplest and best option. 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But that's exactly what you have to do in this campaign; in the missions that are "command decisions" you have to choose not to take certain objectives even though you could, in order to signal your intents to choose one path or another. Would be better if the game had a simple player choice interface between missions, but this is what we have to work with...

But, as I pointed out in the mission list I provided earlier in the thread, win those and you win the campaign. It's not easy, I haven't managed it yet. But, it is possible.. 

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Assault on Werbomont

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The Kampfgruppe is now in the position to take North Werbomont, and then, cut off the exit of the American airborne. This will allow for a clear path to the river, Meuse, which, when taken, will drive a wedge between the Americans and the British. The American paratroopers are dug-in, and expecting to ambush the Kampfgruppe, entering the town.

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The majority of the fighting will have to be left to the Panther gruppe. The SS and Fallschirmjager are under strength, and must be conserved for clearing duties -- for which they are absolutely necessary. The Americans' plan is now to bleed, and slow down the Kampfgruppe, before they reach the exit.

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The Kampfgruppe's new vehicles are proving their worth on the battlefield. The autocannon on the Hanomag is enough to seriously suppress the American garrison.

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As the superior fire power of the Kampfgruppe's vehicles riddle the American strong points with explosive fire --  whileAmerican heavy artillery is being called in.

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BAM! BAM! BAM!

It is zeroing in. The rounds are getting closer and closer. The Fallschimjager must advance, or get caught under a hail of shells.

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The American paratroopers, spring from windows and doorways -- firing wildly at tanks and infantry alike!

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The Kampfgruppe's superior firepower is suppressing the defenders. However, the cowboys remain stubborn. Now, the advance is limited to moving house-to-house.

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Time is running out. Shells are starting to fall. The Panther gruppe and the Fallschirmjager must strike at the Exit now.

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Meanwhile a heavy weapons company is stealthily deployed on the flank of Central Werbomont, under the cover of stealth. Support Hanomags and an HMG platoon will support the flanking maneuver, once the exit has been taken.

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While North Werbomont was lightly defended, there is a concentration of American paratroopers protecting Werbomont exit. These men are fighting to the last man, taking pot shots at advancing infantry as Panthers hose them down with MGs.

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BANG!

ACHTUNG! American heavy anti-tank guns hidden behind the exit have opened fire! They have the power to obliterate a Panther with a single shot, at this range. The infantry must handle this one.

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BANG!

American gunners reload their AT guns with High Explosive, as the Fallschimjager closes in on them. The 3-inch HE is devastating -- the advance is pinned!

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Holding back the Panthers was a mistake. They are needed to take care of these heavy guns!

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The second phase of the operation is a success. North Werbomont is fully under the Reich, once more. However, the Exit is putting up a stiff resistance. The American artillery will no doubt, if the Kampfgruppe finds itself stuck in North Werbomont. The assault must continue, even in the face of heavy casualties!

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Kesselschlacht

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Breakthrough! With the AT guns silenced, the Panthers lumber through the American rear echelon!

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The heavy weapons company, as well as the supporting armour, have already secured the flank. It is time for the main force to crash down onto Central Werbomont, from the rear.

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The American regular and paratrooper units strike from ambush, as the main force enters Central Werbomont.

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BAM!

The main American forces in Eastern Werbomont are caught entirely by surprise!

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The support halftracks and the heavy weapons company have already deployed for an assault on Eastern Werbomont.

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The Panther squadron rolls towards the rear of Eastern Werbomont.

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The SS infantry, along with the fallschirmjager, finally clear out Central Werbomont -- as the American heavy artillery zeroes on their lost positions.

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A lone M5 AT gun engages the Panther Squadron.

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Too little, too late. The Kettle is sealed, and the goose is cooked.

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Fallschirmjager company secures Eastern Werbomont, all objectives of the Kampfgruppe are complete. The path to the river Meuse is secure.

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As much as the men require hot food and sleep, it is doubtful that HQ will give us much time to rest before the next battle. The coming operation will exploit the gap between the Allies and drive a wedge -- both operationally and politically. This may buy the OKW time to break Army Group North out of the Courland Pocket.

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