Flavor Object Random Change

[MOS:96B2P]

I have a fairly big city map (1072 x 1920 meters) with lots of Flavor Objects.  Over the past week or so I have noticed the appearance of flavor objects in strange locations where they were not placed (a bench in the middle of an alley etc.)  At first I thought I had incorrectly clicked on the map while working in the editor.  However today I observed dozens of misplaced flavor objects.  I realized they are flavor objects that I originally placed but they have now randomly changed to a different flavor object.  Below is a screenshot of an alley with the yellow garbage can flavor object (inside the red square) by each garage.  Several of these garbage cans have changed to other flavor objects (in the yellow circles).  This seems to have happened on an older part of the map where the flavor objects were placed a few months ago.  In newer areas of the same map the flavor objects look as they should. 

Anybody experience this before?  Is this the games way of telling a scenario designer there are to many flavor objects on a map?  

      

[sburke]

My guess is maybe it has to do with all this flavor object editing going on as this is not behavior I have ever seen before.

 

Have you by chance edited the map dimensions since doing that section? I know that sometimes affects troop placement. I don’t think flavor objects, but maybe. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by sburke

[MOS:96B2P]

39 minutes ago, sburke said:

My guess is maybe it has to do with all this flavor object editing going on as this is not behavior I have ever seen before.

This was also my first concern.  However, the flavor objects in question, the garbage can & dumpster, have not been modified or used as a replacement or base item for a replacement.   Also they randomly change to almost any other flavor object (again not flavor objects that have been changed/replaced/modified). 

I checked a different map with just flavor objects arranged in their groups etc as they appear in the editor.  This is just a useful reference map of flavor objects.  Everything on this reference map appears as expected.     

 

39 minutes ago, sburke said:

Have you by chance edited the map dimensions since doing that section? I know that sometimes affects troop placement. I don’t think flavor objects, but maybe. 

I know what you're referring to here.    I learned about this the hard way a few years ago and did some tests (see below).  But the short answer is, I haven't increased the map size for several months.

Test results:  When the south or west edge of the map is lengthened or shortened units on the map will move the same amount of action spots and in the same direction.  When the north or east edge of the map is lengthened or shortened units on the map will remain in their original location.  Flavor objects are not moved by map expansion.

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by MOS:96B2P

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

It is extremely unlikely that this has anything to do with flavor object editing.

I have the impression that your city project is probably the map project with the most flavor objects yet seen in CM. Is this correct? It doesn´t imply that the presented issue has something to do with this but if true we should simply keep that in mind while you navigate new uncharted map creation territory.

Interesting is that this is limited to one specific map and one "older" part of this map edited months ago and the fact that only some but not all flavor objects of a given type changed. Also did the affected flavor objects change to exactly two different flavor objects (a bench and a pallet), or did more options appear? Is it in fact the map part you´ve placed your first flavor objects in?

If not already in place I would recommend that you keep some backups of your scenario files while working on them and for the time being observe if this phenomenom appears again.

 

[usgubgub]

I have noticed the same thing on a map derived from a larger map. A haystack turned into a cemetery monument and a vegetable garden turned into a haystack. Dinàt happen before the latest patch. Was something disturbed?

[MOS:96B2P]

3 minutes ago, Aquila-CM said:

the fact that only some but not all flavor objects of a given type changed.  

Yes, so far I've only noticed it with two types of yellow garbage cans (upright & knocked over) and the dumpster.  These garbage holding flavor objects are probably the most numerous flavor objects on the map. 

 

4 minutes ago, Aquila-CM said:

Also did the affected flavor objects change to exactly two different flavor objects (a bench and a pallet), or did more options appear? Is it in fact the map part you´ve placed your first flavor objects in?

No, they have changed to several different types of flavor objects.  The bench and pallets are some of the most common however.  

Yes, this is happening in the oldest part of the map where the first flavor objects were placed. 

 

5 minutes ago, Aquila-CM said:

If not already in place I would recommend that you keep some backups of your scenario files while working on them and for the time being observe if this phenomenom appears again. 

Yep, this sounds like good advice.  

[Aquila-SmartWargames]

5 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

These garbage holding flavor objects are probably the most numerous flavor objects on the map. 

No causality implied but also good to keep in mind that the affected object is the most numerous flavor object on the map.

9 minutes ago, usgubgub said:

I have noticed the same thing on a map derived from a larger map. A haystack turned into a cemetery monument and a vegetable garden turned into a haystack. Dinàt happen before the latest patch. Was something disturbed?

Was your map "just" large or did it also feature a ton of flavor objects either of a specific given type or in overall quantity?

Edited August 6, 2019 by Aquila-CM

[A Canadian Cat]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

This seems to have happened on an older part of the map where the flavor objects were placed a few months ago.  In newer areas of the same map the flavor objects look as they should. 

This reminded me of something I saw with your intell scenario with CMBS: if I started and saved the scenario without the modified flavour objects installed no matter what after that the saved game always used the wrong flavour object even after installing the flavour object mods. But if I started a new game after installing the mods everything was as expected.

Clearly this is not exactly the same but I wonder if the pattern and root cause are similar. If you:

1) place flavour objects and then

2) later install a flavour object mod and

3) use some modded flavour objects then

4) some before the mods were installed flavour objects get confused and substituted.

It doesn't really address the randomness of the replacement and I don't know why it would do that but it is a hypotheses.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That's a new one on me and I (normally) use a lot of flavour objects. 

[usgubgub]

22 hours ago, Aquila-CM said:

No causality implied but also good to keep in mind that the affected object is the most numerous flavor object on the map.

Was your map "just" large or did it also feature a ton of flavor objects either of a specific given type or in overall quantity?

It was a map cut out from a larger map and there were relatively few flavour objects.

[MikeyD]

Changing maps sizes does tend to throw things out of whack. Most times it doesn't but sometimes it does.

[usgubgub]

This is definitely a new bug, and it is driving me nuts. I set up a farmyard with cabbage patches. I had them in 3 groups of threes over 5 action points. This is set up on the main map where it is stable. On the derivative map, a cut down version of the main map which has been slightly extended along the left hedge, the cabbage patches turn into either haystacks or chicken coops.

 

I deleted them all and recreated the farmyard from scratch as it should have been. I saved and reloaded the scenario, and when I went to look in 3d view the cabbage patches had turned back into haystacks and chicken coops. This has never happened before, so I suspect Something must have gone wrong in one of the patches.

 

The two scenarios are attached. 6th Green Howards near Cristot is the original one, Le Haut de Audrieu the derivative where the problem is occurring. These two scenarios are in development, they are not meant for release.

0 [FM] 6th Green Howards 440611 near Cristot.btt 0 [FM] Le Haut de Audrieu.btt

Edited August 8, 2019 by usgubgub

[Sgt.Squarehead]

This has me quite worried. 

[rocketman]

Can this be attributed to the change in the editor (engine) that allows us to copy flavor objects in 3D-view? Maybe set up one map with objects placed one at a time in 2d view and an identical one with objects copied in 3d instead. And then change size of the maps to see if things go nuts.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

If that's the case, my CM:SF2 Mtope map should display the behaviour in spades, I used an awful lot of object cloning there.....TBH I placed one of each object that I was going to use along the main road, then Alt+Shift cloned them, and Alt moved them all from there to their intended locations. 

[MOS:96B2P]

15 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Changing maps sizes does tend to throw things out of whack. Most times it doesn't but sometimes it does.

I did some test on this awhile back.  It depends on what map edge you increase or decrease and Flavor Objects are not moved.  However I guess Flavor Objects would be deleted if sitting on a map section that was deleted.  

 

On 8/6/2019 at 12:32 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

I learned about this the hard way a few years ago and did some tests (see below).  

Test results:  When the south or west edge of the map is lengthened or shortened units on the map will move the same amount of action spots and in the same direction.  When the north or east edge of the map is lengthened or shortened units on the map will remain in their original location.  Flavor objects are not moved by map expansion.  

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, usgubgub said:

On the derivative map, a cut down version of the main map which has been slightly extended along the left hedge, the cabbage patches turn into either haystacks or chicken coops.

I deleted them all and recreated the farmyard from scratch as it should have been. I saved and reloaded the scenario, and when I went to look in 3d view the cabbage patches had turned back into haystacks and chicken coops.

This does not sound good.  I'll run some tests on this today. 

 

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I placed one of each object that I was going to use along the main road, then Alt+Shift cloned them, and Alt moved them all from there to their intended locations. 

Yep, I pretty much do the same thing with the Flavor Objects.  I thought I had just hit the upper limit of the Flavor Objects.  However maybe there are more things going on.  I'll try to narrow it down today.    

Edited August 8, 2019 by MOS:96B2P

[sburke]

Cabbage patch dolls are hiding in the haystacks.....

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Yep, I pretty much do the same thing with the Flavor Objects.  I thought I had just hit the upper limit of the Flavor Objects.  However maybe there are more things going on.  I'll try to narrow it down today.

I used bazillions of them in that Afghan valley map in the old CM:A engine.....I forget how big your map was, but I'd be surprised if there were a lot more individual items, although you probably used more types?

Please keep me informed of your results. 

PS - Come to think of it, CM:BS 'Trumpton' crashed while I was adding flavour objects and that has a truly silly number for such a small map.....Could it be an issue with the newer engine?

Edited August 8, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Warts 'n' all]

I always thought that they rioted in Trumpton, rather than crashed.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That was the plan.....But without those flavour objects, it ain't gonna happen. 

Fortunately I have a new tool that should solve the issue. 

[MOS:96B2P]

I did some tests and there were changes to previously placed Flavor Objects. 

However I'm not sure what is causing the change.  Sometimes a change will occur after one edge of a map is enlarged or made smaller.  Many times there was no Flavor Object change at all when a map size was changed.  On my Chiraq map there were flavor object changes with no map size change.  The Chiraq map was originally a CMSF1 map.  The new test map was created in CMSF2 v2.02 Engine 4.  Both old and new maps had the flavor object change.  One map had 2000 + Flavor Objects another had about 200.  Both had Flavor Objects that changed.   @usgubgub I think you are seeing this behavior in CMBN (I could not get your files to open) and I have it in CMSF2.  The Flavor Objects change in more than one title. 

So, some flavor objects sometimes randomly change to other flavor objects but I still have not narrowed down what causes said change.        

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

So, some flavor objects sometimes randomly change to other flavor objects but I still have not narrowed down what causes said change. 

Come to think of it, I think I may have noticed this while playing the CM:BS scenario 'BSBP-02 Fort'.....There's a machinery shop type place, with a lot of flavour objects outside, to me it looks like this:

I'm not sure that's exactly what the designer had in mind. 

PS - This scenario has not been modified by myself in any way.....Thus if this is not how it's actually supposed to look, it's probably down to one or other of the patches at a guess. 

PPS - @IanL  This might merit some investigation.

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[MOS:96B2P]

@IanL I can submit the Mantis report.  I was just hoping to be able to provide more details on what causes the Flavor Object change.  

[ncc1701e]

I saw something different when converting my CMSF map to CMSF2. The position of the newly added flavor objects are moving slightly when I reloaded the map right after. But after, they were stable. Seems the engine do some little adaptation on its own.

But, I have never seen a change of flavor objects. I am running CMSF2 vanilla.

Is it not all the addition of new flavor objects with mods that could also cause the problem ?