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StefanKollers

Splitting Russian groups into teams.

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Hello been playing Red Thunder lately, I have been splitting my Russian squads into teams. I do this to try and keep losses down. However I have noticed even my Veteran troops which are rested tend to break and run very easily. My question is would I be better to take the losses by not splitting into groups, is there some kind of morale penalty for deviding my group into 3 teams instead of leaving them in one big group ? They still break even if I have a leader unit nearby. Thanks again for reading.

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Posted (edited)

@StefanKollers Kind of depends on the situation.  In urban terrain I would almost always split them.  In more open terrain maybe not.  From my notes:

Soviet squads don't often have Assistant leaders, so splitting will pretty much always drop one teams Leadership rating, as well as imposing the "rule-based" penalty for operating counter to doctrine.

Engine manual 4.0 page 61: Syrian, Soviet & Italian Armies will suffer a morale penalty if split teams are out of close visual and voice C2 of the Platoon HQ.

Edited by MOS:96B2P

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On 7/7/2019 at 5:50 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

Soviet squads don't often have Assistant leaders, so splitting will pretty much always drop one teams Leadership rating, as well as imposing the "rule-based" penalty for operating counter to doctrine. 

This is wrong. Machinegunner was leader assistant according to TO&E 04/550 (December 1942).  

https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dms_mk1/42227490/452636/452636_original.png

"Зам. командиров отделений - наводчиков" - "Squad leader assistants - gunners".

"Мл. сержант" - "Junior sergeant"

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@DMS Is there a difference between наводчиков- gunner and пулеметчиков- machinegunner? Both are listed as 6 per platoon. 

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3 hours ago, DMS said:

This is wrong. Machinegunner was leader assistant according to TO&E 04/550 (December 1942).  

Maybe a language / translation issue my friend.  :)  I said often which means frequently.  So, frequently the Soviet squads do not have an assistant is what I related.  This is based on my experience in the game and following topics on the forums.   

Also, are you talking about in the game or in real life (RL)?  If you are talking about how it was in RL I'm sure you, @Aurelius and many others know more about it than I know. Other than mild curiosity I'm really only interested in how it works in the game.  I'll let others, smarter than myself, debate how it was in RL.   :)          

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12 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Maybe a language / translation issue my friend.  :)  I said often which means frequently.  So, frequently the Soviet squads do not have an assistant is what I related.  This is based on my experience in the game and following topics on the forums.   

Also, are you talking about in the game or in real life (RL)?  If you are talking about how it was in RL I'm sure you, @Aurelius and many others know more about it than I know. Other than mild curiosity I'm really only interested in how it works in the game.  I'll let others, smarter than myself, debate how it was in RL.   :)  

Yes, of course, I mean IRL. Just wanted to note it, may be developers or beta testers will see my post. Excuse me if it sounded rude, yes, language issue.

In 1941 in TO&E were no assistants, may be that's why in the game we don't see them. 

2 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Is there a difference between наводчиков- gunner and пулеметчиков- machinegunner? Both are listed as 6 per platoon.

Machinegunner assistant was called "machinegunner" and machinegunner was called наводчик, I translated it as gunner.

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@MOS:96B2P  I was referring to the document that DMS posted. I had Russian in high school, but alas the curriculum didn't encompass military terminology... 😄

@DMS Considering the ranks (junior sergeant and красноармеец=private?) that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying it!

As for any RL discussions about this issue, I would have to refer to partisan tactics because they were the ones fighting in the war (much of it is actually a basis for our modern day tactics), though I doubt it would be of any use. For the Soviet side of the story, it is up to our ex-Soviet friends to dig up and share, if they are wiling.

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36 minutes ago, DMS said:

Yes, of course, I mean IRL. Just wanted to note it, may be developers or beta testers will see my post. Excuse me if it sounded rude, yes, language issue.

+1 No problem my friend.  I always enjoy reading your knowledgeable, informative posts.  

 

17 minutes ago, Aurelius said:

For the Soviet side of the story, it is up to our ex-Soviet friends to dig up and share, if they are wiling.

+1.  Yes, I bet they have some interesting stories.  

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28 minutes ago, DMS said:

Yes, of course, I mean IRL. Just wanted to note it, may be developers or beta testers will see my post.

I am not an expert either just want to impart that the game design decision for the leadership / morale penalty for splitting Soviet squads was done to reflect the doctrine they used and the less flexible NCO leadership. Regardless of if a member of the squad was labelled an assistant leader or not this is the design goal of the way splitting was handled. If a change was made to label someone the assistant that goal and the method to achieve it would not change.

I found some comments direct from Steve here http://community.battlefront.com/topic/112368-discussion-of-soviet-offensive-tactics/?tab=comments#comment-1486838:

Quote

he Italians don't have any special modifications other than they weren't allowed to split. Besides that there aren't any differences on the game design standpoint, but as you say in gameplay they are totally different because of the factors I just mentioned.

The Soviets (and soon Italians) can split their Squads, but with a steep morale penalty if the split off unit becomes isolated. This is because they do not have dedicated, trained assistant Squad Leaders like the Germans and Western Allies do.

Lots of interesting discussions around this an be found with this Google search: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=site%3Acommunity.battlefront.com+soviet+squad+splitting

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Posted (edited)

When CMSF2 was being assembled it was decided to give Syrians the same split squad characteristics as old Soviet units. I was surprised to find CMRT units to be  as (relatively) flexible as they were. I thought I recalled (from an early Beta build?) that the Soviets could only split off two man scout teams and nothing else. I suspect if it weren't for the requirement to split units for 'tank riding' that BFC would have been happy to impose no Russian split squads at all on the game.

Edited by MikeyD

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17 hours ago, IanL said:

the doctrine they used and the less flexible NCO leadership

I think that reason of more tight Soviet formations is different. Messengers. In 1941 TO&E in company was 1 messenger and in platoon 1 messenger. Absolutely not enough, Germans had 4 in company HQ and 2 in platoon HQ. In 04/550 TO&E (12.1942) (that I posted above) no messengers at all! Second reason is that Soviet divisions were always under strength in 1944-1945. It is Stavka decision: to keep 7000-men divisions. If your company has 70 men, it is not reasonable to use 15-20 men platoons (with 1-2 machineguns) independently. 

What's about NCOs, well, they were able to keep soldiers in line. To make line formation in the game you have to split squads.

12 hours ago, MikeyD said:

requirement to split units for 'tank riding'

By the way, in BUP-42 (Infantry combat manual - 42) is said that SMG gunners must act by groups of 4-5 men. SMG platoons ("avtomatchiki") were considered as "special" infantry for infiltrating and surprise attacks from flank or rear, not like rifle platoons. 

18 hours ago, Aurelius said:

For the Soviet side of the story, it is up to our ex-Soviet friends to dig up and share, if they are wiling.

I am eager to help with documents from electronic archive pamyat-naroda.ru. 

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