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If you're seeing troops in buildings taking casualties from mortar shrapnel, it seems more likely that it came in through a window or door or shellhole than that it penetrated the building. I believe that probability is factored into the abstracted chance of taking casualties from a shellburst.

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6 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

If you're seeing troops in buildings taking casualties from mortar shrapnel, it seems more likely that it came in through a window or door or shellhole than that it penetrated the building. I believe that probability is factored into the abstracted chance of taking casualties from a shellburst.

you just remind me of another possible bug I noticed during my PBEM with @Heirloom_Tomato. On one occasion a 2" mortar shell hit the street between two buildings and in each of these buildings were my prone lying troops. Yet received exactly 1 KIA and WIA in each building from that 2" shell. :huh: I noticed this odd casualty taking before and my closest guess is and always was that troops in buildings can take losses through windows and then up through the next stories ceiling . So BFC might check on these ceilings providing cover from below at all!!!!!! Counts both, for small arms and any HE effects. :mellow:

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Posted (edited)

@RockinHarry this was on the cobblestone streets right? I would guess it is an abstraction as has already been suggested. The explosion on the cobblestones caused lots of rock chunks to fly up and your guys died from a rock to the head.

In the same battle, I have a guy who was WIA from a mortar round striking a tree in front of the house he was hiding behind. I assumed a branch was shattered and a chunk flew up high in the air and came down, impaling the guy in the legs.

There is a lot of calculations going on under the hood and there will always be things needed to be chalked up to bad luck. 

Edited by Heirloom_Tomato

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2 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

@RockinHarry this was on the cobblestone streets right? I would guess it is an abstraction as has already been suggested. The explosion on the cobblestones caused lots of rock chunks to fly up and your guys died from a rock to the head.

In the same battle, I have a guy who was WIA from a mortar round striking a tree in front of the house he was hiding behind. I assumed a branch was shattered and a chunk flew up high in the air and came down, impaling the guy in the legs.

There is a lot of calculations going on under the hood and there will always be things needed to be chalked up to bad luck. 

@Heirloom_Tomato yes, think it was cobblestone. Last 1-2 turns we played IIRC. Guess you were either targeting a house, or maybe the SdKfz nearby. To be honest, the tiny 2" really shouldn´t do much. I once even had several (emptied smoke round) in hands as Op Veritable battlefield finds. I know about the various abstractions in the game, but very IMHO BFC should have a look in there. Same for infantry outside buildings beeing capable of shooting enemy through window at ground level and killing ptroopers above just as there wouldn´t be any ceilings at all. To me it´s the same issue as the mentioned single 2" mortar round. NO WAY EVER a tiny 2" exploding on the street killing/wounding soldiers lying prone (Hide mode) in two different stone buildings on 2nd stories or higher. If I find time again, I´ll do some more explicit tests. But as mentioned before, anybody else (betatesters and BFC) actually should do their jobs. Beeing myself busy as betatester/mission designer for somebody else already.

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Cobblestone roads are just 'eye candy, the road model is generic 'paved' There might be some influence from what beneath the road, I suppose. Roads often have 'hard' terrain beneath them with means less of the shell's energy gets absorbed by the soil. Cobblestone terrain tiles might act the same as 'rocky' terrain (just a guess). 

About stone buildings, also just 'eye candy'. The game doesn't differentiate stonework skins from clapboard siding skins. Buildings are generically more or less porous depending on building type and size (barns seem especially weak)

About getting shot by the enemy on a lower floor. In my home town a couple years ago some  drunk dude came come, decided to play with his room mate's pistol and accidentally shot his landlady who was sitting in her La-z-boy recliner watching TV on the floor above (she survived). A pistol in a CM title wouldn't be able to pierce nothin'. Even a carbine's problematic.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Cobblestone roads are just 'eye candy, the road model is generic 'paved' There might be some influence from what beneath the road, I suppose. Roads often have 'hard' terrain beneath them with means less of the shell's energy gets absorbed by the soil. Cobblestone terrain tiles might act the same as 'rocky' terrain (just a guess). 

About stone buildings, also just 'eye candy'. The game doesn't differentiate stonework skins from clapboard siding skins. Buildings are generically more or less porous depending on building type and size (barns seem especially weak)

About getting shot by the enemy on a lower floor. In my home town a couple years ago some  drunk dude came come, decided to play with his room mate's pistol and accidentally shot his landlady who was sitting in her La-z-boy recliner watching TV on the floor above (she survived). A pistol in a CM title wouldn't be able to pierce nothin'. Even a carbine's problematic.

Glad I made some screenshots 3 months back. :)

1zq6hxj.jpg

wlylo9.jpg

29xsly8.jpg

Well I read your interpretations on how it all works. But I´m not convinced to be honest. :mellow: Ceilings aren´t all the same, particularly in stone buildings. While you can shoot somebody in a US made cardboard house, it´s far less likely in old stone buildings anywhere in europe, particularly the bigger ones. So I remain with my thinking, it´s not modeled the way it all should be. May it be abstractions or not. All IMHO. :) @Heirloom_Tomato have a look. You might enjoy this! :lol:

vqqid4.jpg

 

Edited by RockinHarry
another pic added

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The blast caused loose tiles to fall in from the roof, causing injuries.

Jagged shards of glass from a broken window were blasted into the room causing injuries.

A fragment hit a wasps' nest in the wall, the soldiers' attempt to ward off the frenzied swarm caused injuries ("Heinz you fool!  Put down that entrenching tool!"  :o)

The list is endless.  :P

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1 minute ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The blast caused loose tiles to fall in from the roof, causing injuries.

Jagged shards of glass from a broken window were blasted into the room causing injuries.

A fragment hit a wasps' nest in the wall, the soldiers' attempt to ward off the frenzied swarm caused injuries ("Heinz you fool!  Put down that entrenching tool!"  :o)

The list is endless.  :P

Okay. Now I am convinced. :P :D;) Guess next time I put my HMG teams out into the open. Might be a better protection vs. micro mortar shells maybe. :wacko:

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No it will be worse.  :mellow:

Sometimes we suffer casualties we don't expect, I strongly suspect it's just a product of the random element of the game, rationalise them how you will, or don't.  ;)

 

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2 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

No it will be worse.  :mellow:

Sometimes we suffer casualties we don't expect, I strongly suspect it's just a product of the random element of the game, rationalise them how you will, or don't.  ;)

 

Sure one can be satisfied with things as is, but that´s not a clear reason not to improve IMO. :)

Just found an interesting doc in the net.: http://www.defence.gov.au/UXO/_Master/docs/Types/Mortar2InchRev01.pdf

looks like that thing with 300g HE filler is not that much to cause heavy damage IMO. I had the smoke type in hands repeatedly (clearly recognisable when digging up) and it´s hardly any larger than a german Stiel 24 potato masher i.e  But as said, it´s not just the 2 inchers. Saw all that happen numerous times before and too many that WTF moments make me avoid the game sooner or later.  

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Posted (edited)

I just don't see those as WTF moments.  ;)

For me a CM WTF moment is when my cunningly concealed T-55MV tracks the side on Abrams right to the end of the turn, then mysteriously loses sight of it just in time for the orders phase!  :rolleyes:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I just don't see those as WTF moments.  ;)

yes, there´s as many POV as there´s players it seems. ;) But off course what BFC decides on is law (and bits of disorder).

Edited by RockinHarry

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If things are falling from above, being prone is no advantage.

Explosions are no fun to be around.....Actually that's a total lie, they are a hoot, but only in carefully controlled circumstances. 

You'll notice when folks blow stuff up on TV etc. they go way overboard on the safety devices, that's because explosions can do unpredictable things that can really hurt you!

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Posted (edited)
On 7/5/2019 at 8:38 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

If things are falling from above, being prone is no advantage.

It is. Shrapnel goes up, so if you're in the upper floors of a building you'd have chances to catch some, though.

Edited by Frenchy56

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It's a pity they did not keep the light and heavy buildings from CM1.

Those mayed it somewhat easier to predict the level of protection granted to the troops occupying them IIRC.

Random can be a nice thing...but TO MUCH random may not be. 😎

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I think this whole debate comes down to players assuming explosions in CM are modelled in high detail, where actually they are very abstracted, based on my experience playing the game over the years.

All the game cares about* is that an explosion of size X goes off at distance Y from a soldier. Then the soldier gets a modifier to his "dice roll" for being in a building and for being prone. If he rolls low, he gets hurt, no matter if he's on the other side of the building looking out the other direction, if three of his buddies are outside standing next to the explosion and should be much more exposed, etc. A dice roll is a dice roll.

 

*There are probably few more factors, such as ground type, ammo type (mortar VS shell), etc. But basically it comes down to chance if the guy gets an unlucky dice throw or not. No fancy shell burst pattern or fragment tracing.

Also, I think hand grenades are even more abstracted... I see very little connection between where the grenade lands and whether it causes casualties or not.

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38 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think this whole debate comes down to players assuming explosions in CM are modelled in high detail, where actually they are very abstracted, based on my experience playing the game over the years.

All the game cares about* is that an explosion of size X goes off at distance Y from a soldier. Then the soldier gets a modifier to his "dice roll" for being in a building and for being prone. If he rolls low, he gets hurt, no matter if he's on the other side of the building looking out the other direction, if three of his buddies are outside standing next to the explosion and should be much more exposed, etc. A dice roll is a dice roll.

 

*There are probably few more factors, such as ground type, ammo type (mortar VS shell), etc. But basically it comes down to chance if the guy gets an unlucky dice throw or not. No fancy shell burst pattern or fragment tracing.

Also, I think hand grenades are even more abstracted... I see very little connection between where the grenade lands and whether it causes casualties or not.

Do you really think so...

IIRC one of the 'selling points' of CM is the realistic simulation of LOS/LOF, armour, penetration ability, trajectory etc, etc

Giving to much weight to dice rolls in casualty calculations seems kind of contrary to this imo.

In RockinHarrys pictures i can kind of buy that the HQ guy took a frag-hit...He seems to be standing, close to a window even, given  a fragmentation range of something like 20 meters for a 2 inch mortar does not seem all that impossible i guess.  The HMG guys lying prone in a 'heavy' building though...should not take any casualties imo...

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Just now, RepsolCBR said:

Do you really think so...

IIRC one of the 'selling points' of CM is the realistic simulation of LOS/LOF, armour, penetration ability, trajectory etc, etc

Yes, I really do think so. And it's exactly because CM is so detailed in other aspects that players get confused and frustrated when explosions often seem "off".

1 minute ago, RepsolCBR said:

In RockinHarrys pictures i can kind of buy that the HQ guy took a frag-hit...He seems to be standing, close to a window even, given  a fragmentation range of something like 20 meters for a 2 inch mortar does not seem all that impossible i guess. 

Many cases can be creatively explained away, but I have also seen prone guys on the far side of big buildings take casualties from 81mm mortars landing a good distance to the other side of the building.

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3 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

but I have also seen prone guys on the far side of big buildings take casualties from 81mm mortars landing a good distance to the other side of the building.

Things like that is frustrating...no doubt 😉

And can not be explained by correct fragmentation implementations i guess. 

Maybe the  question should be...How high an impact should random, dice rolls have ? could it be tweaked somewhat ? 

I wounder...does buildings block fragmentation at all ? is it a simple modifier that could be increased ? 

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