Abstract vs. Realism

[WhiteWolf65]

I was going to start this topic this evening but I'm too zonked out on my Zanax at the moment to think clearly enough to convey my thoughts on this topic. I will resume this topic tomorrow.

Yeah, this was sort of a click-bait topic now and I apologize for that.

Nite all,

**Chris**

[Bud Backer]

This is the forum equivalent of drunk dialing! 

We’re sitting here wondering..huh? What was that all about.

[WhiteWolf65]

Morning gents,

Well the Zanax fog has lifted enough that I think I can continue this topic.

Many of you know that I've been playing war-games for 50+ years now. In that long period of my gaming history, I have played the traditional board type games (Panzer Blitz and a ton of others), 1/285th scale World War II miniatures (Eastern Front), computers (since 1981/82) and even reenactment (Society for Creative Anachronism....heavy fighter and armourer) from the mid 70s to the mid 80s although this was a little extreme as it was definitely REAL. Got the broken fingers and knocked out teeth to prove it.

When I was playing the conventional board games back in the day, I was buying every game published (Avalon Hill, SPI, Yaqunito, Game Designer's Workshop and others) that I could lay my hands on (I think I had over 900 games at one time). Over time though some of those games got so complicated as the companies tried to inject more realism into their products and they became dust collectors on my bookshelves. I completely gave up on conventional war games when Advanced Squad Leader was published. In order to play that game you almost needed an advanced degree in military history/tactics to play it. It got to the point that spending hours and hours playing those scenarios and the rules arguments that often happened (yes, I have gotten into dice throwing wars....bad temper) that it, well it just wasn't fun anymore. I wound up selling all of my ASL material for $150 on Ebay. I still have a large collection of Avalanche Press' Panzergrenadier/World War II platoon level games (about $1,500) but it is in storage, More about what I plan to do with that game series in another post as it relates to the Combat Mission World War II titles.

**Break. Gotta change O2 tank** Gotta tell ya' that lugging an O2 tank around so you can breathe is not fun.

I am sure by this point of this topic you are saying to yourself, "Get to the topic and quit with the personal history lesson.". Okay, I will.

With the advent of the personal computer, it opened up a whole new realm for war games, IMHO so I hopped on the wagon. The one disadvantage of computer war-games is well, ya gotta have a computer (and almost need a CRAY to run some of the newer games being published these days). The advantages, too many to list and I am sure you already know what they are. I haven't killed a cat in ages (send me a P/M and I'll explain the cat thing to you).

With today's computer's the companies can and should do what TAHGC tried to do with Advanced Squad Leader. If you think about it, what is Combat Mission? A pretty close 3-D representation of ASL. Yes, there is much that could be done to improve it to even a higher level of realism, but I'll leave that to the experts. You know though, I sure would love to see a helicopter flame into the ground after getting ripped apart by a Tunguska. The "Aircraft Destroyed" notification just doesn't do it for me.

**Chris**

 

 

 

 

[WhiteWolf65]

36 minutes ago, Bud Backer said:

This is the forum equivalent of drunk dialing! 

We’re sitting here wondering..huh? What was that all about.

I don't even know why I posted that stupid one liner last night. Brain just won't shut up.

[Bud Backer]

29 minutes ago, WhiteWolf65 said:

I don't even know why I posted that stupid one liner last night. Brain just won't shut up.

Don’t sweat it. Meds and forced inactivity don’t make for a peaceful mind. I was just teasing you.

 i agree with you on the issue of realism and playability with old board games. I bought nowhere near as many as you, but I’ve had my share and while I started with AH Battle of the Bulge, with its division - level units, I sought more “realism”and less abstraction. Down the rabbit hole to PanzerLeader and PanzerBlitz, eventually to all the modules for Squad Leader, and branching out to other things like VietNam, etc. 

Trouble was, being able to recollect all the rules for something as complex as SL, (and rule revisions as old ones were superseded) became an issue. As was battle preparation - it took time to set everything up. So much time that playing with others became an impossibility. We’d never finish what we started and that was unsatisfying. 

Returning to simpler things like PanzerBlitz with its simpler mechanics and manageable scale, it ended up that “too much” realism was replaced with something that just worked. 

Computers were a revolution for me. I didn’t have to play both sides, and I didn’t have to spend hours putting counters on a map (only to jar the board with a knee and have to start over). When SSI came out with Steel Panthers, I was instantly hooked. This was as close to SL one could get without the pain. CM bested that of course, but this isn’t meant to be a game comparison, more that as much as I seek realism and depth, there comes a point where it’s just work and not play. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Bud Backer

[WhiteWolf65]

3 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

Don’t sweat it. Meds and forced inactivity don’t make for a peaceful mind. I was just teasing you.

 i agree with you on the issue of realism and playability with old board games. I bought nowhere near as many as you, but I’ve had my share and while I started with AH Battle of the Bulge, with its division - level units, I sought more “realism”and less abstraction. Down the rabbit hole to PanzerLeader and PanzerBlitz, eventually to all the modules for Squad Leader, and branching out to other things like Vietnam, etc. 

Trouble was, being able to recollect all the rules for something as complex as SL, (and rule revisions as old ones were superseded) became an issue. As was battle preparation - it took time to set everything up. So much time that playing with others became an impossibility. We’d never finish what we started and that was unsatisfying. 

Returning to simpler things like PanzerBlitz with its simpler mechanics and manageable scale, it ended up that “too much” realism was replaced with something that just worked. 

Computers were a revolution for me. I didn’t have to play both sides, and I didn’t have to spend hours putting counters on a map (only to jar the board with a knee and have to start over). When SSI came out with Steel Panthers, I was instantly hooked. This was as close to SL one could get without the pain. CM bested that of course, but this isn’t meant to be a game comparison, more that as much as I seek realism and depth, there comes a point where it’s just work and not play. 

Dying (which I did last Friday) definitely has it drawbacks......I HATE HOSPITAL BEDS!!!!! I know you were teasing.

My very first game was Guadalcanal and then Midway. Guadalcanal wasn't that fun but Midway sure was.

I had all of the SPI monster games, including Atlantic Wall. That map was over seven feet long. A friend of mine and I were going to try to play it but it took us nearly three whole days to set it up. And then one of our dear little furry creatures (spelled CAT) decided that it was the best place in the house to take a nap. There were as many pieces left of him as there were counters in the game when I got finished with him (no, I didn't kill the cat, but he is lucky I didn't).I lent my copy of SPI's Highway to the Reich to a college student that she used as a visual aide for her Master's dissertation on airborne operations in World War II. Sadly, every single game I owned (all 900+) along with my 15,000 piece collection of GHQ and CNC miniatures were destroyed in a house-fire.

I was the same as you when SSI came out with Steel Panthers and Steel Panthers MBT (man those aircraft delivered ICMs were devastating in that game).

Agree completely with your last statement. I tried playing the entire invasion of Normandy using Matrix Game's Campaign Series. It took nearly an hour to watch my opponents replays (15 to 20 minutes alone for all his artillery barrages to complete) and then I would spend at least three hours making my moves. I was also involved in a scenario depicting the Battle of Aachen. Imagine playing with over nine divisions on the US side and at least five divisions of the German side at the platoon level. Same thing as with the Normandy scenario. Sometimes, even with computer games, they do tend to be more like work than play. I think that when I return to playing PBEM CM scenarios, I am going to limit myself to tiny and small sized scenarios, with the occasional medium. Short and bloody is going to become the norm for me. Big and huge scenarios....just too much micro-management issues.

**Chris**

Geez Luweez, four or five edits. Still in a haze and not a good one either.

Edited June 27, 2019 by WhiteWolf65

[HerrTom]

I also agree with you by and large, though I would say the key is applying the realism and detail where appropriate. I still play cardboard occasionally (though my wife won't touch them with a barge pole) and something that particularly newer wargames (like the COIN series or even the newer Next War games) have done well is really narrowing the focus of the details to make the point of the wargame really pronounced without dragging you into unnecessary bean counting.

[Glubokii Boy]

I think that the number one abstraction in CM that i would like to get ridd of is...

building interiors...fighting inside/from buildings.

 

[Bud Backer]

8 hours ago, WhiteWolf65 said:

I like the occasional monster sized battle in CM,  but my usual preference I’d for about a company. with the big ones it helps to break it down and do it only when I can spend the requisite 45 minutes etc to do my turn. But that means a slower paced game. My company battles are a pleasure. Enough toys to have fun, and not so many I’m wondering where some insipid bugger ran off to with my coffee thermos. 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Bud Backer

[RockinHarry]

I like realism all over the place. Even if it´s kinda.... complicated.  Hm... reminds my I have a full set of AH´s original Squad Leader + modules on the shelves. Think I´ll get rid of it at ebay or so.

Edit: Anybody thinks it´s worth something? 

Edited June 28, 2019 by RockinHarry

[WhiteWolf65]

19 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

I like realism all over the place. Even if it´s kinda.... complicated.  Hm... reminds my I have a full set of AH´s original Squad Leader + modules on the shelves. Think I´ll get rid of it at ebay or so.

Edit: Anybody thinks it´s worth something? 

Cool. I was a beta-tester/researcher/rule designer for Anvil of Victory and Crescendo of Doom but Don Greenwood was a real ass to work with. Took credit for many of the rules that I wrote and were included in those two modules. I told him where he could stuff his games and that is why I am not listed in the credits. I also have a friend in Bethesda, MD that did all the graphic work for the original games, but not ASL. He left TAHGC because of Don.

I would love to get my hands on the basic, Anvil of Victory, and Cross of Iron scenario cards so that I could convert them for use with CM. You might be able to sell these on Ebay. I am sure there are people that would love to add them to their collections.

**Chris**

[WhiteWolf65]

16 hours ago, HerrTom said:

I also agree with you by and large, though I would say the key is applying the realism and detail where appropriate. I still play cardboard occasionally (though my wife won't touch them with a barge pole) and something that particularly newer wargames (like the COIN series or even the newer Next War games) have done well is really narrowing the focus of the details to make the point of the wargame really pronounced without dragging you into unnecessary bean counting.

The only conventional game I have is Avalanche Press' Panzergrenadier series but they are in storage. I hope some rat couple hasn't made a nice little home for themselves.

[domfluff]

The main advantage of face to face wargames is that the "AI" is generally better.

I'm a firm believer that choice of game medium should follow from external factors - there are things that a boardgame is really good at (e.g., the amount of information you can communicate with a counter is very high), and things which they do very badly (hidden information in particular). You can work around these issues, or you can work with them, and play things designed to be played in the appropriate medium.

 

As a general rules, I usually look for wargames that you can knock out in under two hours, maybe three at a push. That's something that's very suitable for face to face play, and fits in nicely with the form (e.g., "game night", or something that you can finish in one sitting).

That narrows the field considerably, of course.

Combat Commander, Commands and Colors: Ancients, Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage and Hammer of the Scots are all great examples of something fitting into that model.

The games of Phil Eklund (the BIOS series, High Frontier, the Pax games and Greenland series) are simulationist games which are wargames in all but subject matter (since they are concerned with spaceflight, evolution, cultural change or whatever), and also usually fit into a two hour period.

In terms of miniatures games, I'm a big fan of Crossfire, since it's unusual in that the emphasis for the average minis game is on the miniatures, rather than the game rules

Further afield, something more esoteric like an Engle Matrix game, which is basically a group roleplaying game on a strategic/political subject, can easily cope with things that only that medium can do - it would be extremely difficult to model a satisfying matrix game as a singleplayer PC game, for example.

 

So, yes, it's all down to context. Combat Mission does infantry combat in particular extremely well, and (because of the lack of individual control), probably better than something like ARMA, since your soldiers will react more or less realistically. The detail at this level does mean that it struggles a little at larger scales (and obviously can't cope with anything Operational), but that's fine - it has it's niche and it works very well for that.

[WhiteWolf65]

53 minutes ago, domfluff said:

The main advantage of face to face wargames is that the "AI" is generally better.

Tis' true. Well, most of the time it is. I've have played FTF with many people in the past and some of them were just plain dumb as a door-nail when it came to playing the games. Yeah sure, put your Hummel (in Panzer Leader) up on a hill so my Shermans can blow you away.

I'm a firm believer that choice of game medium should follow from external factors - there are things that a boardgame is really good at (e.g., the amount of information you can communicate with a counter is very high), and things which they do very badly (hidden information in particular). You can work around these issues, or you can work with them, and play things designed to be played in the appropriate medium.

Yes, I hated putting those stupid "?" counters on units in SL and ASL.

As a general rules, I usually look for wargames that you can knock out in under two hours, maybe three at a push. That's something that's very suitable for face to face play, and fits in nicely with the form (e.g., "game night", or something that you can finish in one sitting).

Again, I agree but it is usually my fault when I choose to play anything larger than a medium sized engagement. I just don't have the concentration or the patience to play the Large or Huge games after my recent health episode. I tend to loose track of what I am trying to accomplish when dealing with more than two or three companies of units.

That narrows the field considerably, of course.

Yes it does, but good Lord look how many games are available on Stream now, including BFC's Theater of War series.

Combat Commander, Commands and Colors: Ancients, Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage and Hammer of the Scots are all great examples of something fitting into that model.

I have heard of these but I've never played them.

The games of Phil Eklund (the BIOS series, High Frontier, the Pax games and Greenland series) are simulationist games which are wargames in all but subject matter (since they are concerned with spaceflight, evolution, cultural change or whatever), and also usually fit into a two hour period.

I did like these types of games in the past but I got burned out on them a very long time ago. Do you remember a game (can't remember who published it) Universe. Talk about a micromanagement game. Sheesh.

In terms of miniatures games, I'm a big fan of Crossfire, since it's unusual in that the emphasis for the average minis game is on the miniatures, rather than the game rules.

My favorite miniature rules would be GDW's Command Decision (their artillery rules were great), TSR's Tractics (of course you'd better have a Masters Degree in mathematics), and Angriff (can't remember the publisher)

Further afield, something more esoteric like an Engle Matrix game, which is basically a group roleplaying game on a strategic/political subject, can easily cope with things that only that medium can do - it would be extremely difficult to model a satisfying matrix game as a singleplayer PC game, for example.

Once again, I got really burned out on the role-playing games long ago.

So, yes, it's all down to context. Combat Mission does infantry combat in particular extremely well, and (because of the lack of individual control), probably better than something like ARMA, since your soldiers will react more or less realistically. The detail at this level does mean that it struggles a little at larger scales (and obviously can't cope with anything Operational), but that's fine - it has it's niche and it works very well for that.

Yes, the Combat Mission games do reflect infantry combat very well. As for ArmA, there really isn't any comparison between it and Combat Mission. Completely different monster. Also a very easy Rabbit Hole to disappear into if you get addicted to it. There is one ArmA III player on Stream that has played it 28,000 hours or 3.1 years. He must not have much of a social life. As I have stated in another post, I have ArmA II/Operation Arrowhead and ArmA III plus 2.2 Tb of mods. ArmA depicts combat at a very high level of realism with the possible exception of the aircraft, but it wasn't meant to be a flight simulator. However, the number of mods available for ArmA III are mind boggling. Did you know they even have a Waffle House mod? After a hard day of killing militants or zombies (NO, I DO NOT PLAY DAYZ), you can stop by your local ArmA III Waffle House and have a greasy hamburger and some scattered hash browns. The video I've attached is one of my favorite. TURN UP THE SOUND. I just hope the Admins don't get upset with for posting this video.

**Chris**

I'm progressing. Only one edit this time round.

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by WhiteWolf65

[Mord]

 

8 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I like realism all over the place. Even if it´s kinda.... complicated.  Hm... reminds my I have a full set of AH´s original Squad Leader + modules on the shelves. Think I´ll get rid of it at ebay or so.

Edit: Anybody thinks it´s worth something? 

I don't know how versed you are on using Ebay but what I do when I want to research what something is going for is type the item in the Ebay search bar then when the results come up, scroll down and check Completed Listings (Left hand side). This will give you sold and unsold listings. I think you could make some decent money especially if you ship world wide and the rules are in English.

Don't know if this link will show or not (but here's completed listing for just a "Squad Leader" search:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=squad+leader&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1

Tried to PM you but you don't accept them.

Mord.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Mord said:

 

I don't know how versed you are on using Ebay but what I do when I want to research what something is going for is type the item in the Ebay search bar then when the results come up, scroll down and check Completed Listings (Left hand side). This will give you sold and unsold listings. I think you could make some decent money especially if you ship world wide and the rules are in English.

Don't know if this link will show or not (but here's completed listing for just a "Squad Leader" search:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=squad+leader&_sacat=0&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1

Tried to PM you but you don't accept them.

Mord.

Thanks! That helps and link works as well.  Never sold anything at ebay, just purchased tons of sh..t til now. Ah... mailbox. Yes, it´s full I think. Got to tackle that now.  Edit: Yep, it was full.

Edited June 28, 2019 by RockinHarry