CMBN V4.02 - US on board mortar penetrate concrete pillboxes (repeatable)

[RockinHarry]

CMBN V4.02 (no modules), play mode 1 player - turn based, Iron, german player defend vs US AIP

Think I´ve nailed it. Got to recreate the problematic situation from my mission in a new test mission seperately and found:

US 60mm and 81mm onboard mortar rounds oftenly (not always) penetrate german concrete type pillboxes when:

The pillboxes are partly surrounded by +1 to 2m high ditch locked berms. The way the pillboxes then get "sunk" (or mesh adapt) into the terrain mesh at execution turn 1 likely detach or shift the pillboxes "hitbox" in a way that penetrations can occur (my theory). Usually these penetrations are lethal to all pillbox occupants. Also "partial" penetrations can occur with similarly damaging effects to occupants. Since I´ve made a sound mod that indicates penetrations on stone wall type terrain objects more clearly, I also got some sonical feedback that a penetration type event occurs.

Other terrain in pillbox AS: "Dirt Red" terrain tile and single tree.

I´ve attached an archive file (dropbox link) that includes 2 test mission files and 4 save games. I´ve tested from german side, with the US AIP just ordered to place some suppressive mortar fire missions on the pillboxes. Starting as germans and simply observing what´s happening during the US mortar bombardment was the basic test situation.

Not tested any other situations with different US Arty or german pillbox types.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hu1b4pyei5l61xh/Mortar_vs_Pillbox_Penetrate_V402.rar?dl=0

 

[General Liederkranz]

Interesting. i didn't see this problem when I tried your "You Enter Germany" scenario, but I just ran the 60mm and 81mm tests (4.02) and I see it. In the 60mm scenario the right-hand bunker lost 4 men to a round that detonated inside the bunker. In the 81mm test each bunker took a hit that detonated inside, each time losing 4 men.

[RockinHarry]

5 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

Interesting. i didn't see this problem when I tried your "You Enter Germany" scenario, but I just ran the 60mm and 81mm tests (4.02) and I see it. In the 60mm scenario the right-hand bunker lost 4 men to a round that detonated inside the bunker. In the 81mm test each bunker took a hit that detonated inside, each time losing 4 men.

thanks for taking time and a first confirmation.  So I´m not alone with the issue which is good and bad the same time as in fact there appears to be a general problem even if it´s rather rare considering it´s a more somewhat "special" case. But who knows. If my "theory" is somewhat correct then it´s not too unlikely that other mesh auto alterating things cause similar yet unnoticed issues. Buildings do auto mesh sculpting, roads, certain terrain tiles etc. But off course it could be something completely different as well. 

@General Liederkranz , did you try the YE Germany scen just recently or is it more long time ago? Think the initially heavy US direct fire on the southern most pillbox could somewhat disguise the mortar penetration issue as both (direct and indirect fires) happen simultaneously almost the same time. I can´t quite remember, but i think when I started with that mission the problem wasn´t there initially and rather "introduced" with some the more recent patches. Around V3.x something I guess.

Edit: Just found it

 

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

Rubble objects floating in the air

think there´s a  somewhat related problem too. If in editor placing buildings on a map in damaged or destroyed state, then the game generates some random rubble objects then dropped onto the buildings floor at game start. When the mesh auto sculpting occurs it seems that more often than not there´s some random rubble objects that remain or get pushed floating in the air. Sometimes a save and reload game gets the rubble objects back to where they belong (on the tiles floor), but it doesn´t work all the time. Sometimes they get dropped down back later in a running game though.

[General Liederkranz]

It was recently that I played YEG, under 4.01. These are my results. At the time, I was sure the casualties I was seeing were from direct tank/TD fire and not mortars. Perhaps I was wrong but I was carefully watching.

 

[RockinHarry]

3 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

It was recently that I played YEG, under 4.01. These are my results. At the time, I was sure the casualties I was seeing were from direct tank/TD fire and not mortars. Perhaps I was wrong but I was carefully watching.

 

ahhhhh....apologies! Forgot about that latest conversation we already had over there. I´m getting old it seems. 

Okay...as said if it was a playthrough pre V3.12 then there shouldn´t have been any (major) problems IIRC. Anything beyond, problems and yet becoming bigger with each subsequent patch. 

[RockinHarry]

On 6/18/2019 at 1:24 AM, RockinHarry said:

Since I´ve made a sound mod that indicates penetrations on stone wall type terrain objects more clearly, I also got some sonical feedback that a penetration type event occurs.

can´t edit post, so got to self quote. Sound mod in use link to be found here :

 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

OK I reviewed your files and created my own tests... Bug logged.

This does seem to be a bit different than the fixed bug I found. In that case rounds were penetrating through the roof and going off inside. That was back in v1. Now these rounds are going off inside the walls and the shrapnel radius is extending into the inside. At any rate not good. I agree that the mesh deformation seems to be contributing but it is not necessary. My tests showed the issue with flat no mesh deformation scenarios. But none of my tests resulted in KIA even in the ones with some mesh deformation. While your tests with significant mesh deformation actually did result in some KIA.

Hti text does not seem to be working either. I mentioned that too.

I do not agree that the building rubble is related to this but I have not investigated that yet.

[RockinHarry]

54 minutes ago, IanL said:

OK I reviewed your files and created my own tests... Bug logged.

This does seem to be a bit different than the fixed bug I found. In that case rounds were penetrating through the roof and going off inside. That was back in v1. Now these rounds are going off inside the walls and the shrapnel radius is extending into the inside. At any rate not good. I agree that the mesh deformation seems to be contributing but it is not necessary. My tests showed the issue with flat no mesh deformation scenarios. But none of my tests resulted in KIA even in the ones with some mesh deformation. While your tests with significant mesh deformation actually did result in some KIA.

Hti text does not seem to be working either. I mentioned that too.

I do not agree that the building rubble is related to this but I have not investigated that yet.

thanks for taking time @IanL  Just guesswork on the floating rubble, but this as well bugs me for years already. My assumption is mostly based on my habit to place damaged /destroyed buildings surrounded by berms (for rubble) as well. Thus I seemed to see sort of relation, but again, can be something totally different. Fortunately the floating rubble is just of cosmetical nature (as far as I can tell), but nonetheless. If the mesh deformation inhibits any sort of (hidden) issues, maybe multiple things can be fixed the same time now. 

Edit: Building-Rubble-Mesh deformations like this

http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=1046

Edited June 19, 2019 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

any news on this @IanL?

[A Canadian Cat]

We don't really get news. So, I have nothing for ya. The next time a patch is worked on it will be looked at. I will try to remember to remind the boss about it when the time comes.

[RockinHarry]

18 hours ago, IanL said:

We don't really get news. So, I have nothing for ya. The next time a patch is worked on it will be looked at. I will try to remember to remind the boss about it when the time comes.

thanks @IanL I then keep avoiding pillboxes til they got fixed. Thus far haven´t seen anything else keeping me from working on missions fortunately.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Have you considered placing pillboxes inside buildings to toughen them up? 

Perfectly legitimate, if a little tricky to do in the editor.

[RockinHarry]

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Have you considered placing pillboxes inside buildings to toughen them up? 

Perfectly legitimate, if a little tricky to do in the editor.

@Sgt.Squarehead it´s not about pulling off certain tricks, when reinforced concrete type pillboxes don´t offer any penetration resistance to mortar shells (50 to 81mm). They oftenly just go through like there´s no pillbox at all and the good stuff coming from above instantly kills everybody in those doomed pillboxes. Like mentioned above it´s majorily when pillboxes are combined with ditch locked terrain in a particular way. So it´s a very specific bug and IIRC won´t happen when pillboxes are placed on level terrain. Hopefully BFC finds what´s going on there til next patch. What I did with ditch locked terrain can be called a keyhole position. Mainly should lower a pillboxes frontal footprint and cover it from (up to) 3 sides with terrain mesh. While it does the purpose fairly well, that special setup makes them vulnerable to mortar (and maybe Arty, not tested) shelling.