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BFCElvis

New "02" patches for Game Engine 4 are now available

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

-The Roadblock battle has a definite change in elevation and that could very well be (and I believe is) what they are moving toward to seek better cover... ...Well, you can also see it when moving forward at ground level.

...

That is why actual reproducible examples across various battles (preferably test battles)  is what it will take to convince me that it is a bug.

No unit should EVER rush forward and towards known contacts when a simple movement back,  away, and down slope from their position (hedges) is but 5 feet away. How is choosing to leave cover to run 20m forward fully exposed to a small rise in the open - EVER a good decision?

Speaking for myself only - I still have no idea what factors are evaluated to produce an evasion way point. Until that changes - I can't show a failure. Ergo, there's no fault to correct.

Perhaps your response to my question will help me better understand what to look for other than nearby HE, small rises in elevation, and small arms fire...

Edited by Howler

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52 minutes ago, umlaut said:

A bigger problem has been vehicles that ignore pause orders. For instance I  give a 30 sec pause order, but the vehicle simply moves off right away - leaving the embarkers behind. Doesnt happen every time, though

A couple of times I have had problems with “stragglers”: One member of a squad refuses to move with the others, but stays far behind. But unlike previously, they seem to catch up eventually.

Once, a team I ordered to embark a carrier got “stuck” embarking: the team greyed out as if they embarked, but I was unable give orders to both carrier and team for the rest of the mission.

There are other odd occurences, but these are the ones I remember right now. I have save games for some of them.

Pause orders and embarkers - I don't usually do that but I know Ian once put together a set of rules about what order you need to give instructions to which unit to get it to work correctly.  I always have them board in one turn and move the next as I frankly never got the hang of that one and it seems prone to failure :P  

Straggler issue I have had and usually it involves a corner of a wall.

The Stuck embarking I have only seen once and it was in CMBN.

save games 👍

 

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

The Roadblock battle has a definite change in elevation and that could very well be (and I believe is) what they are moving toward to seek better cover. This behavior was brought up to me by Charles when he saw something similar in one of the test battles that were running to fix the very definite bug caused in the 4.01 patch. Looking at the map in the editor you can see it. Well, you can also see it when moving forward at ground level. 

As @Howler said this still sounds bugged to me. I did some tests with this scenario and noted that in v3.12 and v4, not only do the troops not flee forwards, they usually flee back, which makes far more sense. In 4.01 and 4.02 whenever they flee, it's always forward. So even if the issue here is that the pixeltruppen are seeing the elevation change in front of them as "better cover," that is itself new behavior in 4.01 and 4.02. The old behavior--seeking safer cover by moving back from the hedgerow--seems far more realistic to me.

 

 

Edited by General Liederkranz

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1 minute ago, Howler said:

No unit should EVER rush forward and towards known contacts when a simple movement back,  away, and down slope from their position (hedges) is but 5 feet away. How is choosing to leave cover to run 20m forward fully exposed to a small rise in the open - EVER a good decision?

First off there is an assumption about known contacts.  For example in the Scottish corridor, your pixeltruppen have no idea they are facing an enemy attack.  They are simply set up in a position facing a certain way.  If a round of HE goes off through the hedgerow, is staying on the side they are on a good thing or not?  In the absence of other info the decision to go to the other side might make sense.  There is no perspective by the unit unless it itself has spotted the enemy that one side of the hedgerow is better than the other.  Not saying that is actually the case here, but it is part of the consideration for the TAC AI.

For what is it worth the specific issue in the Scottish campaign is bugging (ha) me and I'll likely keep messing with it to see if I can't figure out what might possibly be the cause.  Not sure how likely it is I'll figure anything out, but I'm stubborn that way.

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5 minutes ago, Howler said:

No unit should EVER rush forward and towards known contacts when a simple movement back,  away, and down slope from their position (hedges) is but 5 feet away. How is choosing to leave cover to run 20m forward fully exposed to a small rise in the open - EVER a good decision?

Speaking for myself only - I still have no idea what factors are evaluated to produce an evasion way point. Until that changes - I can't show a failure. Ergo, there's no fault to correct.

Perhaps your response to my question will help me better understand what to look for other than nearby HE, small rises in elevation, and small arms fire...

Sure. A great way to create something that will demonstrate if there a bug that causes units being fired on to run toward the firing enemy units are any scenarios like the attached test scenarios. These (with the exception of the one that has "tanks" in it's title....more about that one in a minute) were a few of the test scenarios that were created to duplicate the problem when the 4.01 patch was released. In these cases (and every other one created) it was clear right away that there was a problem. No guessing. No other possible explanations. Cut and dried and clear as can be. These were also among the scenarios tested during the development of 4.02 to see if the problem was fixed. There were others but these are the only ones that I still had laying around. And if you take the time to look at them you'll see not much more is needed to show it. 

The one with tanks is a recently changed one because a tester wondered if it was only HE fire that now caused it. It doesn't.

In all 4 of the attached battles the running toward the enemy does not occur. And it previously had occurred 100% of the time using these same battles. I recommend anyone curious download these and take them for a spin. It doesn't take very long. Open the battle, set it for 2 player hotseat and let're rip. Pretty much just have to click Go and watch. 

BONUS POINTS: If you still have the download for the 4.01 re-install that to revert the game to 4.01 and run them. That'll illustrate the difference better than all the words that I could ever write. 

Running Toward Firer.zip

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1 hour ago, sburke said:

Pause orders and embarkers - I don't usually do that but I know Ian once put together a set of rules about what order you need to give instructions to which unit to get it to work correctly.  I always have them board in one turn and move the next as I frankly never got the hang of that one and it seems prone to failure :P  

 

Well, the embarkation is not really the issue here. The issue is that I order the vehicle to pause for say 30 seconds - and it moves off at once. Without any pause.

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Just now, umlaut said:

Well, the embarkation is not really the issue here. The issue is that I order the vehicle to pause for say 30 seconds - and it moves off at once. Without any pause.

ahh okay that is weird.  I haven't seen that one at all.

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2 minutes ago, umlaut said:

Well, the embarkation is not really the issue here. The issue is that I order the vehicle to pause for say 30 seconds - and it moves off at once. Without any pause.

Do you have a save for that one, or can you recreate it. I've never seen that myself. As someone above said (ian?) I do the embarkation 2 steps because Id always mess it up. But pause has always worked correctly for me

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3 hours ago, sburke said:

As IanL noted that isn't quite true if you actually read the content of what he said, but hey you are free to chose.  As noted in some of the comments above I have been one of those specifically citing the first battle of the Scottish campaign and honestly not even the whole battle, just one specific location where it CAN happen frequently, but not always.  I have not duplicated it anywhere else so beyond being overly dramatic, your comment does not reflect my experience with CMBN much less the entire CM series.  But again you are certainly free to chose never ever to play again.  That would be amusing.

when I complain to the car salesman that the car I bought him squeaks when I turn right and he says that I only have to turn left !!! Yes I find it funny

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3 minutes ago, Falaise said:

when I complain to the car salesman that the car I bought him squeaks when I turn right at this one specific intersection, when it is raining on alternate Tuesdays.and he says that I only have to turn left !!! Yes I find it funny

Fixed that for ya.

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1 hour ago, sburke said:

Pause orders and embarkers - I don't usually do that but I know Ian once put together a set of rules about what order you need to give instructions to which unit to get it to work correctly.  I always have them board in one turn and move the next as I frankly never got the hang of that one and it seems prone to failure :P  

Yes, that set of orders should work - and I do it that way frequently. Typically it works. When it fails it is because I screwed the pause length. This only works if the embarking troops actually start to enter before the pause runs out. If the clock runs out before the first soldier mounts up then you are out of luck. If the pause clock is still running when the first guy gets in then the vehicle will remain after the pause is done to pick up the rest of the embarking soldiers.

So, the problem is that the pause was ignored. I have seen that from time to time but so far it has been unverifiable / unreproducable - I don't have the save of the orders and I have never been able to get it to happen while I was trying to get it to. Sigh. About half the time it has happened I am really not sure I placed the pause order and the other half I cannot get it to happen again.

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21 minutes ago, sburke said:

 

20 minutes ago, sburke said:

Fixed that for ya.

😄 I must be like Bill Murray in "an endless day" at one specific intersection, when it is raining on alternate Tuesdays

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1 hour ago, Falaise said:

when I complain to the car salesman that the car I bought him squeaks when I turn right and he says that I only have to turn left !!! Yes I find it funny

Here's where that analogy falls short. Isn't it really "my car squeaks when I turn right". "It does? The mechanic couldn't get it to squeak. It does it every time you turn right?" "Not everytime. Just at these 2 intersections. Every other right turn it doesn't ". "Maybe it is something about those intersections and not the car". 🙂

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well here's the naughty scenario in question pulled out of the campaign.  I'm going to take a look see in the editor....

I'd like to see more than Lip Service.  We should tackle this thing Hand in Hand. I am tired of No Action.  Let's get it fixed and we''ll be Living in Paradise. We really need to Pump it Up.

Otherwise there's going to be a Night Rally at BFC HQ.

Bosq reg.btt

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1 hour ago, PIATpunk said:

well here's the naughty scenario in question pulled out of the campaign.  I'm going to take a look see in the editor....

I'd like to see more than Lip Service.  We should tackle this thing Hand in Hand. I am tired of No Action.  Let's get it fixed and we''ll be Living in Paradise. We really need to Pump it Up.

Otherwise there's going to be a Night Rally at BFC HQ.

Bosq reg.btt 1.15 MB · 3 downloads

Since this is Monday I should have said Welcome to the Working Week right out of the gates. I'm Not Angry and will see if I can get someone familiar with AI orders to, with No Dancing, take a look at the AI orders. I can say from opening the game in hotseat 3 times that the attached screenshot is all of the units at that hedgerow at setup. Meaning the units that have been shown going through the bocage under fire were moved there and did not start the battle there. That increases the likelihood that they had AI orders moving them forward. The chances of them not having AI orders for that are not Less Than Zero though. But my Sneaky Feelings are that they do. But I'm no Miracle Man.

Setup.jpg

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Have any of the folks that believe this is a bug that is being ignored tried the 4 battles that I posted earlier? I'd be interested to hear the reactions.

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To my eye German troops are up to the hedge from the start - then when brits are moved up some spot the bunker a way back and target it - some rounds pass through near gap in hedge. Then when some more fire get laid in at Germans when they open up  esp HMG and green squad as get occasionally spotted - it seems to be enough to send em forward. Others remain behind the hedgrow like the sniper and fall back if it gets too hot for them.

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4 minutes ago, Wicky said:

To my eye German troops are up to the hedge from the start - then when brits are moved up some spot the bunker a way back and target it - some rounds pass through near gap in hedge. Then when some more fire get laid in at Germans when they open up  esp HMG and green squad as get occasionally spotted - it seems to be enough to send em forward. Others remain behind the hedgrow like the sniper and fall back if it gets too hot for them.

If you open the file that PIATpunk posted you will see the initial setup locations. 

Have you tried the files that I posted?

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Since this is Monday I should have said Welcome to the Working Week right out of the gates. I'm Not Angry and will see if I can get someone familiar with AI orders to, with No Dancing, take a look at the AI orders. I can say from opening the game in hotseat 3 times that the attached screenshot is all of the units at that hedgerow at setup. Meaning the units that have been shown going through the bocage under fire were moved there and did not start the battle there. That increases the likelihood that they had AI orders moving them forward. The chances of them not having AI orders for that are not Less Than Zero though. But my Sneaky Feelings are that they do. But I'm no Miracle Man.

 

Actually they start there in the placement turn.  Here is a screenshot in scen auth mode of the hedgerow.  One thing to note that isn't apparent from the elevation markings in the map editor is the slope in the terrain.  Note this is the start turn and Zug I is already arrayed. 

Zug 1 is A2 (HQ and 2 squads), A4 (MG team) and A7 (sniper).  There are only 2 plans.  Plan 1 they just default setup.  Plan 2, the one we are concerned, with has them setup along the hedgerow.  Subsequent orders have them (A2)withdrawal about 13 AS back.  The MG team however moves laterally along the hedgerow.

 

It also appears it is the units toward the map edge that exhibit the behavior.  The units toward the viewer withdrawal from fire correctly.

 

1467754345_TSC001.thumb.jpg.7f03ec8008640bab0eee5bfd19d3aefa.jpg

Edited by sburke

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

I'm Not Angry and will see if I can get someone familiar with AI orders to, with No Dancing, take a look at the AI orders.

I'll take a look.

It's hard to see the orders on the normal map (too many yellow crop tiles).....I've replaced them with grass.

There are two AI plans.  The team in question appears to be A4.

It's default setup in Plan 1 is at a hedge break further to the east, no tile is painted, that is where the unit is placed.  It then seems to run backwards & forwards a lot, but at no point should it approach a break in any bocage after the initial setup.  The scripts in this plan seem oddly written, the timings seem only partially finished to me (at a very cursory inspection).

In Plan 2 the team is set up in what appears to be the adjacent tile to problem location, by tile painting.  This could be the source of the issue, the AI may be placing the team the wrong side of the hedge at game start because the tile covers both sides.  Thus they may not be fleeing through the bocage, because they were never behind it in the first place. 

They then change position before moving forward to the hedge-line at Order #3.  Again it is possible they are attempting to cross the hedge-line rather than remaining on the friendly side simply because the painted tile covers both sides.  After this they do not approach any bocage tiles.

My suspicion is that the issue lies with Plan 2 at either Setup or Order #3.....Just running it in Author mode with Plan #1 disabled to see what happens.

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Posted (edited)

So I ran it in author test.....Setup was as desired and without any sort of player interaction, the MG team does not cross the hedge-line in Plan 2 (three iterations).

So then I ran Plan 1 the same way.....They didn't cross the hedge-line in those tests either.

So it's not the plan alone that is the issue.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Posted (edited)

Took the file, eliminated AI plan one just to make life easy and I flattened the terrain. About 30 seconds of MG fire from one tank.

 

27549730_TSC002.thumb.jpg.a8d68bbf149545b10dbbb646bdd22a9f.jpg

Edited by sburke

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Posted (edited)

Just wondering why you flattened the terrain?  :unsure:

I really want to see this damned thing diagnosed.

BTW - When I ran my tests I used the original unaltered map, not the version with the crops replaced by grass.  That was used only to enable me to see the AI painted orders more easily.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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17 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Just wondering why you flattened the terrain?  :unsure:

I really want to see this damned thing diagnosed.

BTW - When I ran my tests I used the original unaltered map, not the version with the crops replaced by grass.  That was used only to enable me to see the AI painted orders more easily.

There was suspicion at one point that elevation slope could induce behavior.  I think it was ruled out but figured it could not hurt.  I have tried replacing the crops, removing the craters, changing elevation deleting and adding the hedgerow back - nothing changes the behavior.  I am convinced that there was a different ToE back when this was created that allowed you to set a group to idiot status.  These are candidates for the monty python twit race.

What weirds me out is I have fought several PBEMs recently in CMBN and not once have my troops (and I am the Germans) reacted like this.  I really suspect something got baked in somehow as all I have to do is tell the tank to target light on the hedgerow and before the end of the turn out they come.

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