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BFCElvis

New "02" patches for Game Engine 4 are now available

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Thanks. I fired up the save file. I'm not even sure what I am seeing here. It is difficult because you can only see the US side of the battle. What I did notice was the first time the 2 German units in the screenshots below are spotted, this is what the Germans can see at the moment they are spotted. Neither one of them sees much, including a Churchill HE. There is nothing to show what happens before that moment.

Also, for all I know, they have AI orders to move forward at this point and their forward movement may have nothing to do with having taken fire. I'm not trying to be an apologist. I am only pointing the difficulty in determining if what you're seeing is a bug or just the game working as designed.

I understand that it is campaign and cannot be played hotseat like the tests that I ran....which allow you to see both sides of the battle. But against the set up scenarios that are specifically designed to take things like the above into account you can only trust this as an example with a very small degree of certainty. There were at least 2 things that occured to me when I watched it that can explain what you're seeing that are not bugs. Could it still be a bug? Sure. But we just haven't found it in the testing we've done. When the 4.01 patch came out we used those test scenarios and they clearly showed something was wrong. It wasn't even close. And if you try those scenarios that I posted links to earlier you'll see what I mean (both with the 4.01 and then the 4.02 patches to see the difference).

It has (and is) being looked at. But until it can be reliably reproduced there is no bug to fix.

 2.jpg1.jpg

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

As I mentioned.....Is it a bug? Or is it designed behavior? The Roadblock scenario that we've been mentioning, for instance. Are they advancing to better cover and/or concealment? When the same test is done with the rise in the land between the firer and the firee they don't advance toward the firer.  I haven't looked at the Scottish Corridor campaign save file yet. But what if I do and there is cover/concealment in the direction that the infantry run? 

take a look at some of my notes on that thread  I have tried a couple variations with it and have not identified any terrain based considerations (like eliminating the craters).  I am able to reliably duplicate.  wondering if there is something else more subtle or baked in.  I have the single scenario version so you can hot seat

Edited by sburke

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Also also....why do my screenshots look "moody-er"? Yours look way happier.  

A bit of photoshoppery to bring some sunshine on the situation. 

Edited by Wicky

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2 hours ago, sburke said:

take a look at some of my notes on that thread  I have tried a couple variations with it and have not identified any terrain based considerations.  I am able to reliably duplicate.  wondering if there is something else more subtle or baked in.  

Take a look at the map in the editor

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

Thanks. I fired up the save file. I'm not even sure what I am seeing here... Could it still be a bug? 

It has (and is) being looked at. But until it can be reliably reproduced there is no bug to fix.

What you are seeing is German troops charging towards the British for no sensible reason and getting themselves killed. This behaviour did NOT happen with Engine 2. It did NOT happen with Engine 3, and did NOT happen with Engine 4 in it's original form. It has only been noticed SINCE the 4.01 patch was released. 

But I have followed the advice that you gave in a previous post, and re-installed the patches. And, hey presto! NO Germans charging towards my Churchills to get themselves killed. I don't have time to check "The Roadblock" now. But I will try to in due course, or perhaps others may like to  try the re-install method for themselves.

Edited by Warts 'n' all

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Warts,  it would happen each time in the possibilities that I mentioned.  Instead of getting hung up on one small part of of one battle we need to recreate it in darn near every situation to determine it is truly a bug. 

I can't think of any other ways to express this concept in this thread....so I think I am going to stop trying. 🙂

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Posted (edited)

That "squad" is a MG team set up at the gap in the bocage. There is also an AT gun team near the center of the map. They both will consistently suffer similar fates. It's a lot easier to see what's going on if you run it at Basic Training level. Then you get the identities and god-like spotting, and can also see if they are in C&C. (They are).

I've run LOTS of tests with this and with the Roadblock scenario that was also listed as a problem. The only thing I can get consistently to happen is the crew-served weapons teams breaking and running toward the enemy under HE fire (like the Churchill firing in Scottish Corridor). Reported for confirmation on the Beta testing forums. Several of us have run numerous tests to try to find the common factor.

Also, in the Roadblock scenario, while I see the behavior in that save file, when I run it myself from the start I cannot under any circumstances recreate it. And I've very hard placing multiple teams and squads in those positions, static and moving. They all behave "correctly"  HOWEVER, there is no HE fire being directed at them and that's the only times I've seen any odd behavior.

 

Edited by Ultradave

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In my two most recent attempts, my Jocks ran towards Gerry as well. The first time their actions were prompted by mortar fire, the second time it only took small arms fire for them to go charging forward. Ho hum.

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On 7/6/2019 at 1:58 PM, Warts 'n' all said:

In my two most recent attempts, my Jocks ran towards Gerry as well. The first time their actions were prompted by mortar fire, the second time it only took small arms fire for them to go charging forward. Ho hum.

What scenario? Still in Scottish Corridor, number 1?

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Posted (edited)
Quote

What scenario? Still in Scottish Corridor, number 1?

 

Yes @Ultradave this is still occurring with the latest 4.02 patch.  see  

 

 

Quote

this is what the Germans can see at the moment they are spotted. Neither one of them sees much, including a Churchill HE. There is nothing to show what happens before that moment.

@BFCElvis - logically though, having already taken some HE and small arms fire from wherever (which is what happened, I ordered the Brit units to area fire on their location), the last place you'd be wanting to head for is straight towards a known enemy unit, with no cover in between.  

Edited by PIATpunk
spelin n stuf

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1 hour ago, PIATpunk said:

Yes @Ultradave this is still occurring with the latest 4.02 patch.  see  

 

Right. I'm all up to speed with the whole issue. Just checking from your last post if it was still the same scenario or if you moved on to #2, or #3, or whatever. Thanks.

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Guys, you're obsessing over 2 battles. Unless it is seen in all cases (or even most cases.......certainly WAY  more than just the 2 battles discussed here) then it isn't a bug. A bug needs to be something that can be recreated. I've given plausible explanations, that aren't bugs, of what could be going on in both cases. Unless it can be reliably reproduced in any setting then it isn't a bug.  Period. At this point, it would be having our programmer chasing ghosts for a non-issue. 

Someone mentioned (I'm not going to bother going back to remind myself of who it was) that it is making the game "unplayable". I could understand that if most bocage battles displayed this (as was VERY clearly the case after the 4.01 patch) but the fact is that no other battles are producing this. Have any of the folks that keep talking about this tried any of the test scenarios that we built to test this? Or created test scenarios of their own to test this? If not, you might want to do that. Or, just please do not touch the Roadblock scenario and Scotch Corridor campaign ever again. That seems like the best solution at this point. 🙂 

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Posted (edited)

It is true that "Road block" was taken in reference and that I did not test another scenario
however, I find your advice very amusing
You could have said: "or, just please do not touch the Roadblock scenario, Scotch Corridor campaign, CMBN and all Battlefront games ever again. That seems like the best solution at this point."

Edited by Falaise

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7 minutes ago, Falaise said:

 "Gold, just please do not touch the Roadblock scenario, Scotch Corridor campaign, CMBN and all Battlefront games ever again. That seems like the best solution at this point."

Well given that is not what he said your point is - well not a point.

I personally still think there is an issue here and I am continuing to create a test case I can bring forward...

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16 minutes ago, Falaise said:

You could have said: "or, just please do not touch the Roadblock scenario, Scotch Corridor campaign, CMBN and all Battlefront games ever again. That seems like the best solution at this point."

As IanL noted that isn't quite true if you actually read the content of what he said, but hey you are free to chose.  As noted in some of the comments above I have been one of those specifically citing the first battle of the Scottish campaign and honestly not even the whole battle, just one specific location where it CAN happen frequently, but not always.  I have not duplicated it anywhere else so beyond being overly dramatic, your comment does not reflect my experience with CMBN much less the entire CM series.  But again you are certainly free to chose never ever to play again.  That would be amusing.

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34 minutes ago, Falaise said:

You could have said: "or, just please do not touch the Roadblock scenario, Scotch Corridor campaign, CMBN and all Battlefront games ever again. That seems like the best solution at this point."

I only suggested avoiding those two because those two appear to be the only battles anyone sees any form of this situation in. If the highlighted bit was necessary to avoid seeing this behaviour then it would, in fact, be an actual bug and a fix would be in the works. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

Guys, you're obsessing over 2 battles. Unless it is seen in all cases (or even most cases.......certainly WAY  more than just the 2 battles discussed here) then it isn't a bug. A bug needs to be something that can be recreated. I've given plausible explanations, that aren't bugs, of what could be going on in both cases. Unless it can be reliably reproduced in any setting then it isn't a bug.  Period. At this point, it would be having our programmer chasing ghosts for a non-issue. 

Someone mentioned (I'm not going to bother going back to remind myself of who it was) that it is making the game "unplayable". I could understand that if most bocage battles displayed this (as was VERY clearly the case after the 4.01 patch) but the fact is that no other battles are producing this. Have any of the folks that keep talking about this tried any of the test scenarios that we built to test this? Or created test scenarios of their own to test this? If not, you might want to do that. Or, just please do not touch the Roadblock scenario and Scotch Corridor campaign ever again. That seems like the best solution at this point. 🙂 

It happened in subsequent battles in that campaign as well - either noticably occurring like in the 1st battle or when looking at the battlefield afterwards and finding slain enemy suspiously forward off hedgrow gaps towards my lines when they were in fixed defense - plus pixeltroopen under my command making an occasional forward dash when spooked (not panicked) and if not killed by their impulsiveness, needing careful herding back.

I would have made a note if these occurances and sent saves on but I thought it was recognised as a problem still with 4.02 and I finished the still enjoyable but tough campaign last week.

Edited by Wicky

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whether it is a bug or not, I only make one observation: it does not work anymore when it worked very well
I remind you that the road block scenario is a training scenario.

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4 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

Guys, you're obsessing over 2 battles. Unless it is seen in all cases (or even most cases.......certainly WAY  more than just the 2 battles discussed here) then it isn't a bug. A bug needs to be something that can be recreated.

Can I quote you to my customers!  They would LOVE that definition of a bug.

That little joke aside, I understand developer time is finite and tracking down the cause of such a rare problem is not the optimal use of that time.

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Posted (edited)

Since there’s so much talk about The Scottish Corridor I am going to add my two cents. 

Since the release of 4.02 I have take TSC up where I left it several years ago. Generally, the gameplay is just fine, but I have encountered some strange behaviour now and then:

Only once or twice I have seen the fleeing forward through bocage. Only by the germans. 

A bigger problem has been vehicles that ignore pause orders. For instance I  give a 30 sec pause order, but the vehicle simply moves off right away - leaving the embarkers behind. Doesnt happen every time, though

A couple of times I have had problems with “stragglers”: One member of a squad refuses to move with the others, but stays far behind. But unlike previously, they seem to catch up eventually.

Once, a team I ordered to embark a carrier got “stuck” embarking: the team greyed out as if they embarked, but I was unable give orders to both carrier and team for the rest of the mission.

There are other odd occurences, but these are the ones I remember right now. I have save games for some of them.

Edited by umlaut

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1 minute ago, Dynaman216 said:

Can I quote you to my customers!  They would LOVE that definition of a bug.

That little joke aside, I understand developer time is finite and tracking down the cause of such a rare problem is not the optimal use of that time.

Hee hee. Yes, you can quote me. 

I'm not sure how much you've followed but I cannot confirm that what is seen in both of these examples isn't what it is intended to do.

-The Roadblock battle has a definite change in elevation and that could very well be (and I believe is) what they are moving toward to seek better cover. This behavior was brought up to me by Charles when he saw something similar in one of the test battles that were running to fix the very definite bug caused in the 4.01 patch. Looking at the map in the editor you can see it. Well, you can also see it when moving forward at ground level. 

-The Scottish Corridor example happens sometimes and sometimes doesn't. Because it is a campaign we can't even look at it from both sides while the battle is being fought. It could very well be AI plans that had those units moving forward from there when it happens. And a different set of AI plans being run when it doesn't. This is a very real possibility.

That is why actual reproducible examples across various battles (preferably test battles)  is what it will take to convince me that it is a bug.  This isn't a stubbornness about not wanting to admit the game may have bugs (I know of a few open ones right now 🙂 ). It's about letting folks know what goes into determining if something is a real bug or not. 

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