[modding question] Sounds of tank MGs

[Kaunitz]

There is one thing that I've been wondering about for years. When you're modding sounds, everything works fine if you stick to the rules (wav, 705kBit/s, 16 Bit). The sounds that you can hear in the game sound like the ones you hear if you play them outside the game. The same is not true when it comes to the sounds of some tank MGs ("gun 7 lmg" - used for german hull MGs and also the "infantry" MG34; "gun 7 coax" used for tank turret MGs, not just for german tanks, but also, e.g. Soviet tanks). Something strange happens here. The sounds played in the game sound very differently (much worse) from the sounds if played outside of the game. It's hard to tackle what it is exactly, but it sounds very ugly. Sometimes, the sounds are even cut off or there is no sound at all.

So I wondered if anyone knows what's going on? With all other sound files, everything works so well, but here I am at a loss. I think in the end maybe the sounds are just played so close to each other that they create some ugly blending? So a slightly larger intervall between the shots would make them sound much better? I know that the MG34 also had an incredible rate of fire, but for some reason  it sounds very strange. Also, the same sound is used for non-MG34 ("gun 7 coax" is used by Soviet tanks).

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Kaunitz

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

There is one thing that I've been wondering about for years. When you're modding sounds, everything works fine if you stick to the rules (wav, 705kBit/s, 16 Bit). The sounds that you can hear in the game sound like the ones you hear if you play them outside the game. The same is not true when it comes to the sounds of some tank MGs ("gun 7 lmg" - used for german hull MGs and also the "infantry" MG34; "gun 7 coax" used for tank turret MGs, not just for german tanks, but also, e.g. Soviet tanks). Something strange happens here. The sounds played in the game sound very differently (much worse) from the sounds if played outside of the game. It's hard to tackle what it is exactly, but it sounds very ugly. Sometimes, the sounds are even cut off or there is no sound at all.

So I wondered if anyone knows what's going on? With all other sound files, everything works so well, but here I am at a loss. I think in the end maybe the sounds are just played so close to each other that they create some ugly blending? So a slightly larger intervall between the shots would make them sound much better? I know that the MG34 also had an incredible rate of fire, but for some reason  it sounds very strange. Also, the same sound is used for non-MG34 ("gun 7 coax" is used by Soviet tanks).

 

to me it sounds a bit like live sound conversion as operated by the OS and game engine maybe. I usually stick strictly to 44kHz 16 Bit mono as this is what the game uses for positional audio in the game. Background soundscape excluded, which is stereo normally. Sometimes some the same game sounds are triggered just miliseconds from each other causing a "phase out" effect, meaning that some the waves contents amplitudes cancel each other out. Another ugly effect is sort of "phasing" or "flanging", when the waves do not entirely cancel each other but just certain frequencies at variable times. Think one can avoid much of that when one has more than just one sound for a particular weapon, so the game engine can randomly pull different ones at very short intervals when required. Sound lengths also play a role. I´d found one better sticks with sound lengths well below 1 second, better yet 300 to 500mS at max.

[Kaunitz]

You seem to know much more about this "audio stuff" than me. I think you're right that it may be caused by the sound effects being played so close to each other (just miliseconds). I will try to add variations of the sound. Oddly enough, for the affected weapons, none of the common sound mod features more than one variations; so I'm in doubt as to whether they will work... 

You're also right that shorter sounds are necessary for high rate of fire weapons. Unfortunately, this means you have to accept some inconsistency if you're using longer sounds for shots of weapons of a slower rate of fire (e.g. rifles), as most sound mods do (their bullet shot sounds include some reverb/"echo" of the shot). So a rifle shot will have a nice reverb, while a MG shot will not. Playing completely without reverb is no option for me.

Then again, I've just recently discovered the "shot trail" files which seem to simulate the reverb of shots and are not used by any sound mod out there. I need to pay more attention when they're triggered. Maybe they would do a fine job (so that the shot and the reverb sounds can stay in separate files) but are just too silent?

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Kaunitz said:

You seem to know much more about this "audio stuff" than me. I think you're right that it may be caused by the sound effects being played so close to each other (just miliseconds). I will try to add variations of the sound. Oddly enough, for the affected weapons, none of the common sound mod features more than one variations; so I'm in doubt as to whether they will work... 

You're also right that shorter sounds are necessary for high rate of fire weapons. Unfortunately, this means you have to accept some inconsistency if you're using longer sounds for shots of weapons of a slower rate of fire (e.g. rifles), as most sound mods do (their bullet shot sounds include some reverb/"echo" of the shot). So a rifle shot will have a nice reverb, while a MG shot will not. Playing completely without reverb is no option for me.

Then again, I've just recently discovered the "shot trail" files which seem to simulate the reverb of shots and are not used by any sound mod out there. I need to pay more attention when they're triggered. Maybe they would do a fine job (so that the shot and the reverb sounds can stay in separate files) but are just too silent?

Doing digital audio editing since 1997 basically, mostly for musical purposes.  All the same though concerning just the audio data.

As mentioned in my other threads already I keep shot files as short as possible and to allow the shot trail files to be triggered. Can´t quite recall the trigger response times, but they´re below 300mS I think. Thus I keep shot lengths at 300mS or below as well. For high ROF MG´s I´ve not found an optimal solution yet. For some I use very very short shot lengths (reflecting real ROF), but at other times I´d stick with multiple shot files instead. On my computer I too oftenly experience asynchronous shot file triggering, leading to that terrible "stutter" burst sounds. Sometimes it´s the game performance when lots of actions and terrain bring the PC to near its knees, at other times it´s improperly edited wave files themselves. So my preference remains at shortest possible shot length file, properly adjusted individual sound volumes and reasonable frequency content for the games purpose (lower on bass and bits more muffled).

One also needs to consider the game (or sound engine) has limited capabilities. It will just play those sounds that are nearest to the camera position upto a certain range and some circumstances (not quite sure what these all are). If games performance falls below a certain point, much of the sounds get cut or not played at all. To counter that behavior I oftenly need to switch 3D object quality to "balanced" or even below. No idea on sound hardware and OGL driver support on the matter (amount of available sound channels etc.)