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2 hours ago, Howler said:

could some official means of providing them be established by BFC?

For better or worse engaging with testers and other community members is as close to official as we are going to get. Keep doing it.

2 hours ago, Howler said:

Now, that is interesting. I'm my case, the one save sent to @IanL involving the CW 18 Platoon scenario, is fixed.

Yeah, there was a change made. It seems to not have resolved the problem enough. Testers are still working on it. Now one has abandoned this issue.

 

5 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I´d rather prefer "unfiltered" direct responses from developers themselves. Just for clarity! To me it oftenly seems you beta testers aren´t told certain necessary datails as well, so many your public responses more often than not, leave many questions still open.

OK but that's not going to happen. We do have NDAs and sometimes that is a cause but BFC also dose not document the full behaviour scope of every little thing. So, it is what it is and it is intentional so there ya go.

5 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I feeled a bit....not taken serious maybe. That "feel" still prevails ATM

:( To bad so sad. Sorry you feel that way but it is how you feel not how BFC views customers. Sorry I cannot make you feel better :)

5 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Have a look at (and take serious) this and we´ll see further.

Yeah, so interestingly enough it was taken seriously and reported and a fix was made (found the but report). So, are you saying you have seen this (mortar round exploding inside bukers) still in 4.0x? If so I will look at reproducing it. If you have a save that would get me ahead of the game. If not can you at least confirm that it still happens in the latest build.

10 hours ago, sttp said:

I don't think we should just throw our hands up here and say "oh well, software's complicated, so what are you gonna do?"

Thankfully no one has said that and no one on the testing team will. The fact that you don't seem to want to believe that isn't our problem. :)

10 hours ago, sttp said:

I feel like that's what happened with the tanks humping bridges bug, primarily because of some of the more vocal forum members here, and all that's gotten us -- the community of players -- is a bug that still exists.

I have explained this before but perhaps you have missed this. I get that end users just see a problem with bridge crossing - heard and understood. The fact is that in the background multiple bugs have been fixed. So far every reported and logged bug has been fixed. The fact that it is still possible to find new ways of confusing bridge crossing is unfortunate. If you guys find examples and report them with a save they will be fixed. So, short version there is not one single thing that "just has not been fixed" this is a complex area and multiple bugs that show the same symptoms have been fixed. If there are more we can go after them too.

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2 hours ago, Howler said:

I'm tired of people telling me that saves are required but not telling me how this can be done.

It's pretty straightforward and common sense - Use a file host i.e. dropbox or similar etc. and link to it either in a thread where the problem is being discussed or if a new bug then start a new thread with a descriptive title and a description along with any additional screenshots and the save file.

Here's one I did earlier....

 

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1 hour ago, IanL said:
Quote
7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I feeled a bit....not taken serious maybe. That "feel" still prevails ATM

:( To bad so sad. Sorry you feel that way but it is how you feel not how BFC views customers. Sorry I cannot make you feel better :)

´No worries. I´m not suffering too much. 

Quote
7 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Have a look at (and take serious) this and we´ll see further.

Yeah, so interestingly enough it was taken seriously and reported and a fix was made (found the but report). So, are you saying you have seen this (mortar round exploding inside bukers) still in 4.0x? If so I will look at reproducing it. If you have a save that would get me ahead of the game. If not can you at least confirm that it still happens in the latest build.

Good to know (finally) it was reported. A fix..... can´t really tell but as mentioned in the quoted posting above it got worse in CMBN V4.01. Formerly I was able to "catch" a mortar round in flight by quick tapping "ESC". Now I can´t anymore, just like the round became visually non existent yet had an effect in 3D world nonetheless. Odd. That save file  still at this place (CMBN V4.01 all modules, incl. Vehicle Pack):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d70cl5yaj2toi9j/You enter Germany - Introduction - for CMBN V TST.bts?dl=0

I´ll make another test in CMBN V4.02 same mission again and post save file link at a place where it´s seen the best. New thread? Posting in another thread? Just let me know. :)

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2 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Good to know (finally) it was reported. A fix..... can´t really tell but as mentioned in the quoted posting above it got worse in CMBN V4.01. Formerly I was able to "catch" a mortar round in flight by quick tapping "ESC". Now I can´t anymore, just like the round became visually non existent yet had an effect in 3D world nonetheless. Odd. That save file  still at this place (CMBN V4.01 all modules, incl. Vehicle Pack):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d70cl5yaj2toi9j/You enter Germany - Introduction - for CMBN V TST.bts?dl=0

I´ll make another test in CMBN V4.02 same mission again and post save file link at a place where it´s seen the best. New thread? Posting in another thread? Just let me know. :)

Probably a new thread would work best - so it does not get lost in the uproar that this thread is heading towards :D

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4 minutes ago, IanL said:

Probably a new thread would work best - so it does not get lost in the uproar that this thread is heading towards :D

Ok will do. CMBN or General Discussion department then? Else?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Wicky said:

It's pretty straightforward and common sense - Use a file host i.e. dropbox or similar etc. and link to it either in a thread where the problem is being discussed or if a new bug then start a new thread with a descriptive title and a description along with any additional screenshots and the save file.

You're from the UK where reading comprehension is optional.😀

I'll restate - if I want a dropbox/host/etc... to document an issue with BFC --- I'd have one.

I'm not opening an account simply to send a savegame to a vendor. I don't even like my first born that much!

In any event, I'll spam @IanL with saves until he cries uncle.

I maintain that asking every customer to buddy-up with the chosen few is not an efficient means of capturing issues. But, it is what it is and I'll deal with it.

Edited by Howler

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, IanL said:

I have explained this before but perhaps you have missed this. I get that end users just see a problem with bridge crossing - heard and understood. The fact is that in the background multiple bugs have been fixed. So far every reported and logged bug has been fixed. The fact that it is still possible to find new ways of confusing bridge crossing is unfortunate. If you guys find examples and report them with a save they will be fixed. So, short version there is not one single thing that "just has not been fixed" this is a complex area and multiple bugs that show the same symptoms have been fixed. If there are more we can go after them too.

🤔

Not siding with any arguments here but the bolded is not true, unless you are refering to solely bridge related bugs?

Edited by Oliver_88

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1 hour ago, Oliver_88 said:

Not siding with any arguments here but the bolded is not true, unless you are refering to solely bridge related bugs?

I was specifically referring to bridge related bugs. I should have been more clear.

There are lots of bugs reported here. Some actually are bugs. Many of them those get fixed. It is true that some do not. I am unaware of a bridge bug that was reproduced (with a save or by a tester following the report) that was not fixed.

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2 hours ago, Howler said:

In any event, I'll spam @IanL with saves until he cries uncle.

LOL aren't I lucky. I should warn you I have a back log of stuff I am supposed to be looking at. You might get board waiting for me and cry uncle first :D

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Posted (edited)
On 6/17/2019 at 10:52 AM, Howler said:

I'll restate - if I want a dropbox/host/etc... to document an issue with BFC --- I'd have one.

I'm not opening an account simply to send a savegame to a vendor. I don't even like my first born that much!

So, what exactly is the big deal with creating a (free) Dropbox account?

Edited by LukeFF

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I have dropbox, drive, onedrive, etc.  But I don't hand out access to many people and then only people I know and trust personally.  So I can understand completely not wanting bother creating an account just because a commercial enterprise wants a save to help fix their product.  My expectation is if a company insists on saves to resolve issues, they would provide their own mechanism for it.  Even Matrix Games, with one of the most backward forum infrastructures around, lets you post compressed saves.

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Posted (edited)

err.. you can just upload a file and then share that single file with a link, make the access to that single file read only if you are worried. 

Edited by PIATpunk

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Yes you can.  Again the point is, why doesn't BFC do that?  Why have their customers all go through the effort.  It is relatively simple.  I don't hand out file links as a matter of principle.  But BFC is a business.  Why wouldn't they want to provide that level of support?

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So its not much effort.  We agree.  So why doesn't BFC do it.  Are you asking BFC staff the same questions?  They could set something up once instead of each of their customers doing it individually.

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3 hours ago, PIATpunk said:

err.. you can just upload a file and then share that single file with a link, make the access to that single file read only if you are worried. 

exactly. It´s not nuclear physics difficulty sort of really.

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I'm not saying its difficult.  Why is the onus on the customer.  There is a website and forum right here where saves could be posted.  Instead of a formal QA process, we have unpaid volunteers gathering files from 3rd party sites to help BFC.  Why can't BFC just step up and take the saves directly.  Instead of 30 people all creating links, have one place to do it.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

I'm not saying its difficult.  Why is the onus on the customer.  There is a website and forum right here where saves could be posted.  Instead of a formal QA process, we have unpaid volunteers gathering files from 3rd party sites to help BFC.  Why can't BFC just step up and take the saves directly.  Instead of 30 people all creating links, have one place to do it.

Exactly, and especially when the presentation of a save game is used as a sort of gatekeeping method for bug reporting. The whole forum, at times, has had a kind of "save game or it didn't happen" sort of feel to it.

It's great that we, as customers, can help the developers isolate their software's bugs, but if a potential bug report isn't going to be taken 100% seriously until save-game evidence is presented, then there really should be some kind of simple, official, and centralized method for uploading those saved games.

Edited by sttp

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Are you kidding? Sigh, clearly you are not.

Do you have any idea how poor the quality of bug reports are? We have people claiming all kinds of stuff as broken. And BTW I understand that and do not object. It is a fact of life. In the end testers need to firm them up and get a solid report written. Eventually Charles needs to make a code change to fix a big or one of the modelers needs to change a model or Mike D needs to tweak a texture. In the end one or all of these things needs to be done to fix a bug.

So like your doctor thier time is valuable and we want them working on actionable work items all day long.

Post that say "a missile when through my tank" or "artillery shell blew up inside x" do not give them actionable work. Someone needs to identify a problem specifically and identify a solution that needs to happen. Even for directly obvious stuff they need specifics that don't appear in a bug report as a sentence. Heck even a screen shot may not be enough - which exact varant of a vehicle is that?

Then there are the more nuanced behavior things where there is disagreement on what the right action really is or how prevalent it is. Someone needs to do some statistical work and then have a discussion of what should be happening.

So, as one of those testers that's my job. One that I both take seriously and quite like. Having said that my time is valuable to me too so I need a leg up. You guys are the ones seeing something odd so hit the save button. It's not hard. Get a Dropbox account it's easy. So, BFC doesn't have a repository for saves whaaa. That would be one more thing to maintain. Heck use email - I will and have shared my email with members to report stuff. You guys are right none of this is hard and it is pretty petty to be complaining about not having a way to push saves to BFC when it is so easy to do so.

And while we are on the subject of saves here is a real example of why it matters. Someone on the forum stated that missiles sometimes go through tanks without doing any damage. That concerned me so I asked for a save - actually I think they might have offered one I cannot remember. Without a save I would have had to spend hours creating and running a test. I would never have seen it happen. With the save I was able to see that the missile actually went under the tank. No bug here at all. With a save half an hour of my time. Without a save multiple hours and no resolution.

I am pleased that players of this game are happy to help us by giving us game saves. A big thank you to all of you.

The few here whining - just stop and go play. Any one of the testers will happily help you report a bug you find and find a way to get your game save to us to look at.

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And this is why you need a more formal process.  You need dedicated people doing QA.  You can't have betatesters doing sorting of issues and filtering of this stuff.  Look at the issues that have kept creeping into patches.  I'm not saying betatesters are completely ineffective, but they are less effective than someone with the tools and dedication to a formal process.  A sure sign of that is not a single place to put saves for real feedback.

Your frustration should be with BFC for not providing you the tools that a real QA tester would have.  Like a single repository for saves.  The universal opinion seems to be that it would be easy to set up a dropbox or drive folder.  So maybe someone from BFC should do it.  Again, instead of a couple dozen links from "customers".

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Also, you can put controls in place for the saves.  Or maybe do what a lot of other companies do and let them add them to the forum.  As the frontline QA, delete saves on ones you think aren't effective, load the good ones in the bug tracking system. 

As was said above, this isn't rocket science.  A simple place for when you need a save from a customer, send them the link.  I have about a gig available on OneDrive that is free and fast.  I would imagine someone from BFC's unofficial employees has access to something similar.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Thewood1 said:

I'm not saying its difficult.  Why is the onus on the customer.  There is a website and forum right here where saves could be posted.  Instead of a formal QA process, we have unpaid volunteers gathering files from 3rd party sites to help BFC.  Why can't BFC just step up and take the saves directly.  Instead of 30 people all creating links, have one place to do it.

The onus is on the customer because the customer is reporting WHAT THEY PERCEIVE to be a bug.  Sure BF could open an account and allow anyone in the world to post files to it, but I think you can guess how that would work if you'd take a moment to think about it... mayhem.  Lots of files, no standard naming, no idea what they are in reference to etc.  The real alternative would be to post to a ticketing system...which they do have and it is reserved for the beta testers as we actually comply with what the standards that BF sets versus whatever standard forumite X wants to use.

That you can't bothered to have a free account to post a file and send a link makes it very clear about the amount of effort you are willing to commit to the process.  If you can't be bothered to do that why would anyone think you'd put anymore effort into a different solution? And I am pretty certain you actually can post a save to the forum.  I know I have done it.  So what are you going on about again?

As to your opinion about what BF needs to do for QA and beta testers etc, you are certainly entitled to an opinion, but unless that is backed with a willingness to pay more for the game so BF could consider additional staff…… well it is highly unlikely that it is going to happen.

my dumbass save.btt

Edited by sburke

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I am more than willing to pay more for faster patches and releases.  I have said this for many years.  CM1 and CM2 are teals at what is charged for them.  So mark me down for paying more for a commitment to better communications, more organized patching, and faster releases.

btw, about the free account.  Can you ask the same question of betatesters and BFC?  Isn't that where the question should be asked?  Why ask every individual customer to have an acocunt so they can load a save file for someone they don't really know can download it into some mysterious QA process?  I just can't fathom not seeing that that responsibility should be on the developer.  And its so easy.  Its not rocket science.

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Define easy?  I know how much time I spend looking at customer supplied saves trying to verify what they say is happening, looking at the file itself for anything that might be going on etc.. and only then does it go into a ticket for BF to look at...   and it isn't that mysterious or hard.  Customer x posts something on forum, one of us asks for a save.  We look at the save, if it passes muster we usually reply as such and it goes into the ticket system.

I don't think I get what you are finding so hard and what you expect to get different.  You speak about this as if it has created an undue burden on you.  How many issues have you reported and had to go through a beta tester?  Asking as I honestly don't know, but I don't think I have received any.

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