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Hi everyone

I'm quite new to this game and wonder a bit about playing a pbem game. What I'd like to know first, before I invite someone or reply to someone's invitation to such a game, is how likely it is that my opponent will "cheat" when he is doing his moves.

As far as I understand there are two possibilities when one is involved in a pbem game.

Person A - Gets the save and makes his moves before he sees the real-time result of his moves and the ones from Person B and then saves the file.

Person B - Gets the save and looks at the real-time result from his own previous moves and the ones from Person A as well as makes his next moves before he saves the file.

In this way Person A is able to make his moves and only after that see the result of his and the opponents moves. If he doesn't like the result because one of his armored cars, tank or whatever is being destroyed by an enemy tank, anti-tank gun or an anti-tank rifle he can simply order the tank or whatever, which is being destroyed, to use direct shots towards the area from where the enemy shot came with the result that the new real-time result is better than it was earlier. Or he can decide to use a mortar crew to use direct shot on a position he didn't think about and only during the real-time realizes is filled with enemy squads. There are of course many new decisions Person A can make to improve his possibilities to win the game after he has seen the result. The above ones are only two of them.

What I wonder is how often do you think those things happen? And maybe you have noticed a little odd thing happening and been thinking to yourself that your opponent probably changed his moves after he had watched the real-time result? Or maybe you could be honest enough to let us know when you changed your moves to get a more favorable result and also why you did it?

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It doesn't actually work that way.

When you receive a PBEM, you see the results of the incoming file, then can plot your next moves, and send them to your opponent. There's no option for you to see the outcome and re-do the turn.

 

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Posted (edited)

That isn't how it works... this game has simultaneous orders and neither player can view the action until after both players have given their orders.  Both players will watch the same movie (from their sides of course) before they give orders for the next turn... it repeats like that until one player is left crying under his desk...

The problem you are worrying about doesn't exist in this game.

Bil

 

Edit: damn beaten by @domfluff, damn your eyes!

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

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As far as I'm aware, there is no way to "properly" cheat in CM2 games. The series is far too niche to attract any profesionnal "hack makers". The only way to cheat is to act in an ungentlemanly manner : disregarding home rules, viewing the objectives and OOB of the other side in a pre-made scenario, abusing cheap tricks (map edges for example), abusing certain units that may be unbalanced because of their points/power ratio or the lack of good counters in certain factions/time periods (legions of King Tigers spring to mind...). Fortunately, the CM community is extremely mature as far as game communities go, so that shouldn't be a problem.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, domfluff said:

There's no option for you to see the outcome and re-do the turn.

So you mean that it isn't possible to quit the game and then load the save again to change the moves?

If the one I call Player B sees the real-time result before he makes his new moves, Player A must have been able to see the real-time of the moves after he made them and before he sends the save to his opponent who then will see the result too.

Edited by Anxel Torrente

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4 minutes ago, Anxel Torrente said:

So you mean that it isn't possible to quit the game and then load the save again to change the moves?

If the one I call Player B sees the real-time result before he makes his new moves, Player A must have been able to see the real-time of the moves after he made them and before he sends the save to his opponent who then will see the result too.

Correct. When either player get an email turn they watch the movie that they plotted in the last file that they played. Not the current file that they received. As an example. I may get a turn right now and open it and watch "movie" for the 26 minute mark. After watching the movie I then plot the 25th minute but I don't get to see that movie until after my opponent plays their turn. I will then receive a file and watch the 25 minute mark and then plot the 24th minute and send it off. Repeat until one player is left weeping under their desk.

So, you won't get a file and plot minute 26 and then watch the movie for 26 right away and decide if you want to reload the file and see if you can get better results. 

The only real way to cheat, unless someone were able to hack the password system, was mentioned above. If you are playing a pre-made scenario and the other player separately loads the battle to see what forces they are facing, victory conditions, etc...Which gives an intel upperhand. The other stuff mentioned is more about being gamey than cheating. Personally, I've always felt that anything the game allows is fine, regarding force selection, map edge hugging, etc... 

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Nope.

Player A loads the file, sees the (by now) preset outcome, then gets the chance to make the next moves, passes the turn back.

Player B then loads the file, sees the preset outcome, and gets a chance to make the next moves, passing the turn back.

At no point is there a "re-roll" or a chance to plan something, then change it when you see the outcome.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Anxel Torrente said:

Person A - Gets the save and makes his moves before he sees the real-time result of his moves and the ones from Person B and then saves the file.

Person B - Gets the save and looks at the real-time result from his own previous moves and the ones from Person A as well as makes his next moves before he saves the f

Hi!

What you have described here applies only for the Hot-Seat mode, not PBEM games. I really cannot understand why there is difference, but anyway. Obviously you can cheat this way in the hot-seat mode but not in PBEM.

Here is a small sheet I made the explain the difference:

pbem-hotseat.jpg.ec066a9abc04f5a0bc28d6176b80db34.jpg

Edited by Bufo
typo

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3 minutes ago, Bufo said:

Obviously you can cheat this way in the hot-seat mode

Except in hot seat mode the other player is right there in the room - or at least the next room...

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, IanL said:

Except in hot seat mode the other player is right there in the room - or at least the next room...

My bad, even if you save the game and then reload you cannot change the orders already given. So there is no way to cheat even in hot-seat mode.

 

Edit.: You can just you have to save immediately before giving any orders. And then you can also delete the save file to clean up.

Edited by Bufo
editedit

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Only if your opponent has guessed your password or you've shared it in the past to them. Say for them to review action over a completed PBEM from your seat.

Then they could issue orders (with enigma level of insight) and calculate turns till outcomes were in their favour - this could be checked by them loading it and viewing from your turn perspective, selecting the approtiate 'optimised' turn, and sending it on for you to inherit the baked turn. This ony works half the time when their computer would run the calc

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6 hours ago, Xorg_Xalargsky said:

The only way to cheat is to act in an ungentlemanly manner : (snip) viewing the objectives and OOB of the other side in a pre-made scenario, (snip)

Fortunately, the CM community is extremely mature as far as game communities go, so that shouldn't be a problem.

That's happened to me before. Wasted three months on a PBEM before catching it.

I'd say the only thing you need to worry about, @Anxel Torrente is the quality and caliber of your opponent.

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I decided to test it by playing a pbem against myself by moving the file in the outgoing email folder to the incoming email folder and my comment can only be the following: I won't admit to have spoken too early and before I tested it, but I also won't have a grudge against anyone who accuses me of  having done that.

How come the pbem way of playing differs so from how it's done in a hotseat game? The pbem way is much better.

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Why would you doubt what everyone told you? LOL. There's over 100 years of CM experience in this thread. They're not gonna lie to you.

 

Mord.

P.S. I am a man, I cry on top of the desk...

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16 minutes ago, Mord said:

Why would you doubt what everyone told you? LOL. There's over 100 years of CM experience in this thread. They're not gonna lie to you.

Mord.

P.S. I am a man, I cry on top of the desk...

Yes we would. We are all cheaters and protecting our secrets. 

I’m with @Sgt.Squarehead get an opponent that doesn’t cheat. My regular opponent and I don’t even use passwords   That way after the battle we can both chose to review the whole thing or not at our leisure. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 11:24 PM, General Jack Ripper said:

viewing the objectives and OOB of the other side in a pre-made scenario,

The other possible insight/advantage a player might have gained is from having played a scenario before. This must happen a fair deal - though less perhaps in Normandy with its sheer quantity of content. In most cases it's probably accidental since a player might not realise until the game has started. The best policy is always to be honest about starting a game that you are already acquainted with.

All said and done, for me CM is not a game where winning or losing is particularly important. I think most of the community approach it that way too? It's a shame that there are some players (a minority) who treat it like a high stakes poker game!  

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42 minutes ago, The Steppenwulf said:

All said and done, for me CM is not a game where winning or losing is particularly important. I think most of the community approach it that way too? It's a shame that there are some players (a minority) who treat it like a high stakes poker game!  

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I never cared much for "tournaments", especially back in the old days of CM1. A lot of those guys were so arrogant an took playing way to seriously.

I don't like losing but I enjoy the stories that can come from a good defeat just as much as from a killer win. When I play as a weaker side, like Syrian Combatants or Italians, I adjust my goals to causing as much hurt as I can. If I knock out a few good tanks and rack up a couple dozen bodies, I consider it a "win" even when I get my ass handed to me. LOL. Expectations, brother!

 

Mord.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 1:47 AM, The Steppenwulf said:

CM is not a game where winning or losing is particularly important.

I see it the same way. I'm quite new to the PBEM battles and the battles I'm busy with now is much of a possibility to test certain things. I hardly use direct fire, except when I decide where a mortar section is going to shoot or if I want a PAK gun to use HE shells on a certain position. The infantry has to use their own (the AI's) ability to choose what to shoot at and the same goes for tanks and other armored vehicles. But I sometimes use the area option to keep control on where they should keep an eye open.

Edited by BornGinger

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1 hour ago, BornGinger said:

I see it the same way. I'm quite new to the PBEM battles and the battles I'm busy with now is much of a possibility to test certain things. I hardly use direct fire, except when I decide where a mortar section is going to shoot or if I want a PAK gun to use HE shells on a certain position. The infantry has to use their own (the AI's) ability to choose what to shoot at and the same goes for tanks and other armored vehicles. But I sometimes use the area option to keep control on where they should keep an eye open.

Absolutely. Unless you are trying to adhere to a specific rule set, a human attacker has far more options over the AI and so should you. Smoke for example is never used by the AI as it could be by either side. 

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