weapon2010 Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 (edited) Just wondering if you guys think BF has it right when it comes to direct fire on infantry in buildings?My troops have been mince meat in buildings latley and it doesn't seem like much protection. Is this accurate?It seems excessive to me.The video shows 1 75he shell causing 10 casualties in a church, supposedly the toughest building in cm? Edited May 26, 2019 by weapon2010 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 That looks like two of the smaller churches combined to me.....So not the best protection. Beyond that, how many times does a single HE shell not cause ten casualties.....Without some sort of numbers to work with a single instance is meaningless. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that rather more data is needed, IMHO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted May 26, 2019 Author Share Posted May 26, 2019 im not saying that this single occurence means anything, Im asking in general do you guys think they have building protection for infantry against tanks correctly modeled?Would a 75he shell cause such butchery? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 I wounder how windows (openings) are treated...Surely the shot could pass through a window every now and then and explode inside of the building rather then aginst the outer wall... Is this modeled or kind of abstracted. If it is abstracted maybe thats whats happening here...An explotion inside the building ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 27 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said: Surely the shot could pass through a window every now and then and explode inside of the building rather then aginst the outer wall... That would be my interpretation of this. 40 minutes ago, weapon2010 said: Would a 75he shell cause such butchery? Blast effects can do some crazy stuff, so IMHO this is perfectly plausible.....If nothing else their ear-drums would be rather the worse for wear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 Sherman 75mm has a 'Delay and Effect' ability in real life, perhaps this is modeled in the game to some degree? There are countless anecdotes about either 'skipping' 75mm rounds off the ground, or using a delay fuse to good effect against hard targets. Quote The primary round was the 6.76 kg (14.9 lb) M48 High Explosive round, which travelled at 625 m/s (2,050 ft/s) and contained 1.5 pounds (680g) of TNT filling (2845 kilojoules of explosive energy) and a choice of fuse; the Super Quick (SQ) and the Delay (PD), which had delays of 0.05 and 0.15 seconds respectively. SQ was the standard setting, with PD used against structures, gun positions or lightly protected vehicles. The field gun origins of the ordnance and ammunition ensured that the M2/3/6 series HE round was highly effective for its caliber. The M48 was available in two versions, standard and supercharge, which had an increased propellent charge for greater muzzle velocity (1,885 ft/s (575 m/s) vs. 1,470 ft/s (450 m/s)) and range (2,300 yards greater). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 I've always found that the angle at which a tank round hits a building plays a large part in what happens inside. In your case, as a defender I would be more than a tad annoyed at the outcome of this shot. As the attacker I would be praising the lord, and telling him not to bother passing the ammunition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted May 26, 2019 Author Share Posted May 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Surely the shot could pass through a window every now and then and explode inside of the building rather then aginst the outer wall... or a doorway 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 (edited) think it´s fairly accurate! All that blast, concussion and splinter effects makes occupation of any building quite an uneasy experience. Only protection would be cellars/basements that we don´t have unfortunately. Or take some temporary hiding in the backyard. I also figured turning the guys around by use of the face or target arc command within a building helps with survival as well. (Hide/target arc rearward in building). At least helps much vs enemy small arms coming in frontally. Edited May 26, 2019 by RockinHarry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted May 26, 2019 Author Share Posted May 26, 2019 1 hour ago, RockinHarry said: think it´s fairly accurate! All that blast, concussion and splinter effects makes occupation of any building quite an uneasy experience. Only protection would be cellars/basements that we don´t have unfortunately. Or take some temporary hiding in the backyard. I also figured turning the guys around by use of the face or target arc command within a building helps with survival as well. (Hide/target arc rearward in building). At least helps much vs enemy small arms coming in frontally. were real ww2 troops no matter the side afraid to occupy buildings against tanks ? you think it would be a safe haven? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, weapon2010 said: were real ww2 troops no matter the side afraid to occupy buildings against tanks ? you think it would be a safe haven? no idea, wasn´t in any military or war yet. Occupying a building is one thing, but when beeing spotted and receiving mentioned tank fire HE would be quite another I´d guess. However, the tactics I mentioned above are those that work for me in the game and this is what counts ATM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Liederkranz Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 It reminds me of the Critical Hit rule in ASL where a lucky hit can reverse the Terrain Effects Modifier, turning a solid building into a deathtrap. Solid stone walls are great if they're between you and the shell burst, but if you get unlucky and the shell comes in a window then the walls just make the blast worse (or so ASL leads me to believe). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 In CMSF2 recently I lost 8 men in a building to a single RPG round. An old joke of mine is the best type of building protection is staying behind the building. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said: It reminds me of the Critical Hit rule in ASL where a lucky hit can reverse the Terrain Effects Modifier, turning a solid building into a deathtrap. Solid stone walls are great if they're between you and the shell burst, but if you get unlucky and the shell comes in a window then the walls just make the blast worse (or so ASL leads me to believe). IIRC we have something like that in the game too. Though abstracted I think. Another FUBAR modifier might be a -1 or -2 leader, putting his guys to the wrong windows sort of. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 1 minute ago, RockinHarry said: Another FUBAR modifier might be a -1 or -2 leader, putting his guys to the wrong windows sort of. "Hey guys.....Go up to the roof and check for helicopter gunships!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, MikeyD said: In CMSF2 recently I lost 8 men in a building to a single RPG round. An old joke of mine is the best type of building protection is staying behind the building. And what say your BF bosses about that? I figured any RPG or riflegrenades beeing the best building busters in the games and all series! Not quite busting, but cleaning out any unwanted occupants quickly when they dared to show up at the windows. Tactic or exploit (a bug), I don´t know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: "Hey guys.....Go up to the roof and check for helicopter gunships!" lol something like this, yes. ...or "....guys! run out the front door! The paint on the back one hasn´t dried yet". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Liederkranz Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 (edited) Apart from the possibility of door or window hits, my understanding is that HE effects on infantry in buildings are toned down to compensate for the fact that interior walls aren't separately modeled. I wonder if the "dice roll" for that sometimes zeroes out the "saving bonus," to factor in the possibility that everyone is in the same room. Getting (un)lucky on both those dice rolls--the shell goes in the window, AND everyone's in that room--could explain this video. Edited May 26, 2019 by General Liederkranz 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, General Liederkranz said: Apart from the possibility of door or window hits, my understanding is that HE effects on infantry in buildings are toned down to compensate for the fact that interior walls aren't separately modeled. I wonder if the "dice roll" for that sometimes zeroes out the "saving bonus," to factor in the possibility that everyone is in the same room. Getting (un)lucky on both those dice rolls--the shell goes in the window, AND everyone's in that room--could explain this video. that could well likely be. That´s among the things under the hood that BF doesn´t bother to tell about. At least I can´t recall. But there´s still bits of Fubar in the whole mechanic though. As I mentioned elsewhere in the forum the blast effects, small RG and RPG included, have a bit overdone effects in unexpected places. While I had at a time half a squad killed by RG while lurking at the windows, the same blast effect of that (german) RG made a stone wall collapse to the rear, outside that same house. Even considering that wall was pre damaged previously, that tiny RG couldn´t make it come down easily, or not at all I´d guess. Got to recheck with latest patch, but I don´t expect to see any change here. Edited May 26, 2019 by RockinHarry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat - was IanL Posted May 26, 2019 Share Posted May 26, 2019 Yep, I would not expect any changes in this either. Seems to be working as expected. I will point out that we sometimes get people complaining that RPGs are under modeled because not enough casualties are caused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 RPOs maybe.....RPGs always seem to do the business, but the CM:BS RPO seems a bit feeble given its reputed lethality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 One thing that is worth keeping in mind is that as players, what we know about various bits of ordnance and their performance has been reported as averages. That's what we read about and that's what we expect to encounter in the games we play. But if you have read a lot of histories and first person accounts, you may have come across some very distinctly non-average events where people either survived or did not survive in situations quite contrary to our expectations. As I am fond of saying, "It was a big war and and anything that had an even remote possibility of occurring almost certainly did, and probably more than once." I think it is one of the great successes of CM that the unlikely does happen, without happening all the time. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 Ahh, you didn't know 2010ofWeapon...BF accidentally upgraded the first shot of all 75mm Rounds to be a 150mm Hollow Charge Round (used for the 37mm or 50mm AT w/150 Stielgranate 41). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 On 5/26/2019 at 11:29 PM, IanL said: Yep, I would not expect any changes in this either. Seems to be working as expected. I will point out that we sometimes get people complaining that RPGs are under modeled because not enough casualties are caused. I have no problems with a tiny RG (or similar) killing lots of guys when all bunching up behind a single window. Wrong tactic on the receiving end then. My problem is the sometimes extended blast(??!) effect reaching to unbelievable places (wall example above). Maybe it´s "fixed" in the meantime, I don´t know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaunitz Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Not directly on topic, but close! You might be interested in taking a look at the (west-german) videos on "fighting in built-up areas" linked in this thread: Even if you don't understand german, there are many examples that show how buildings were fortified. Edited May 30, 2019 by Kaunitz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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