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Building Protection from Tank HE shells?


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 Just wondering if you guys think BF has it right  when it comes to direct fire on infantry in buildings?My troops have been mince meat in buildings latley and it doesn't seem like much protection. Is this accurate?It seems excessive to me.The video shows 1 75he shell causing 10 casualties in a church, supposedly the toughest building in cm?

Edited by weapon2010
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That looks like two of the smaller churches combined to me.....So not the best protection. 

Beyond that, how many times does a single HE shell not cause ten casualties.....Without some sort of numbers to work with a single instance is meaningless.  :unsure:

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that rather more data is needed, IMHO. 

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I wounder how windows (openings) are treated...Surely the shot could pass through a window every now and then and  explode inside of the building rather then aginst the outer wall...

Is this modeled or kind of abstracted. If it is abstracted maybe  thats whats happening here...An explotion inside the building ?

 

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27 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

Surely the shot could pass through a window every now and then and  explode inside of the building rather then aginst the outer wall...

That would be my interpretation of this.

40 minutes ago, weapon2010 said:

Would a 75he shell cause such butchery?

Blast effects can do some crazy stuff, so IMHO this is perfectly plausible.....If nothing else their ear-drums would be rather the worse for wear.

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Sherman 75mm has a 'Delay and Effect' ability in real life, perhaps this is modeled in the game to some degree?

There are countless anecdotes about either 'skipping' 75mm rounds off the ground, or using a delay fuse to good effect against hard targets.

Quote

The primary round was the 6.76 kg (14.9 lb) M48 High Explosive round, which travelled at 625 m/s (2,050 ft/s) and contained 1.5 pounds (680g) of TNT filling (2845 kilojoules of explosive energy) and a choice of fuse; the Super Quick (SQ) and the Delay (PD), which had delays of 0.05 and 0.15 seconds respectively. SQ was the standard setting, with PD used against structures, gun positions or lightly protected vehicles. The field gun origins of the ordnance and ammunition ensured that the M2/3/6 series HE round was highly effective for its caliber. The M48 was available in two versions, standard and supercharge, which had an increased propellent charge for greater muzzle velocity (1,885 ft/s (575 m/s) vs. 1,470 ft/s (450 m/s)) and range (2,300 yards greater).

 

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I've always found that the angle at which a tank round hits a building plays a large part in what happens inside. In your case, as a defender I would be more than a tad annoyed at the outcome of this shot. As the attacker I would be praising the lord, and telling him not to bother passing the ammunition.

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think it´s fairly accurate! All that blast, concussion and splinter effects makes occupation of any building quite an uneasy experience. Only protection would be cellars/basements that we don´t have unfortunately. :P Or take some temporary hiding in the backyard. I also figured turning the guys around by use of the face or target arc command within a building helps with survival as well. (Hide/target arc rearward in building). At least helps much vs enemy small arms coming in frontally.

Edited by RockinHarry
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1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

think it´s fairly accurate! All that blast, concussion and splinter effects makes occupation of any building quite an uneasy experience. Only protection would be cellars/basements that we don´t have unfortunately. :P Or take some temporary hiding in the backyard. I also figured turning the guys around by use of the face or target arc command within a building helps with survival as well. (Hide/target arc rearward in building). At least helps much vs enemy small arms coming in frontally.

were real ww2 troops no matter the side afraid to occupy buildings against tanks ? you think it would be a safe haven?

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15 minutes ago, weapon2010 said:

were real ww2 troops no matter the side afraid to occupy buildings against tanks ? you think it would be a safe haven?

no idea, wasn´t in any military or war yet. Occupying a building is one thing, but when beeing spotted and receiving mentioned tank fire HE would be quite another I´d guess. However, the tactics I mentioned above are those that work for me in the game and this is what counts ATM. :)

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It reminds me of the Critical Hit rule in ASL where a lucky hit can reverse the Terrain Effects Modifier, turning a solid building into a deathtrap. Solid stone walls are great if they're between you and the shell burst, but if you get unlucky and the shell comes in a window then the walls just make the blast worse (or so ASL leads me to believe). 

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9 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

It reminds me of the Critical Hit rule in ASL where a lucky hit can reverse the Terrain Effects Modifier, turning a solid building into a deathtrap. Solid stone walls are great if they're between you and the shell burst, but if you get unlucky and the shell comes in a window then the walls just make the blast worse (or so ASL leads me to believe). 

IIRC we have something like that in the game too. Though abstracted I think. Another FUBAR modifier might be a -1 or -2 leader, putting his guys to the wrong windows sort of. :D :P 

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4 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

In CMSF2 recently I lost 8 men in a building to a single RPG round. An old joke of mine is the best type of building protection is staying behind the building. ^_^

And what say your BF bosses about that? I figured any RPG or riflegrenades beeing the best building busters in the games and all series! Not quite busting, but cleaning out any unwanted occupants quickly when they dared to show up at the windows. Tactic or exploit (a bug), I don´t know.

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Apart from the possibility of door or window hits, my understanding is that HE effects on infantry in buildings are toned down to compensate for the fact that interior walls aren't separately modeled. I wonder if the "dice roll" for that sometimes zeroes out the "saving bonus," to factor in the possibility that everyone is in the same room. Getting (un)lucky on both those dice rolls--the shell goes in the window, AND everyone's in that room--could explain this video.

Edited by General Liederkranz
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2 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

Apart from the possibility of door or window hits, my understanding is that HE effects on infantry in buildings are toned down to compensate for the fact that interior walls aren't separately modeled. I wonder if the "dice roll" for that sometimes zeroes out the "saving bonus," to factor in the possibility that everyone is in the same room. Getting (un)lucky on both those dice rolls--the shell goes in the window, AND everyone's in that room--could explain this video.

that could well likely be. That´s among the things under the hood that BF doesn´t bother to tell about. At least I can´t recall.

But there´s still bits of Fubar in the whole mechanic though. As I mentioned elsewhere in the forum the blast effects, small RG and RPG included, have a bit overdone effects in unexpected places. While I had at a time half a squad killed by RG while lurking at the windows, the same blast effect of that (german) RG made a stone wall collapse to the rear, outside that same house. Even considering that wall was pre damaged previously, that tiny RG couldn´t make it come down easily, or not at all I´d guess. Got to recheck with latest patch, but I don´t expect to see any change here. 

Edited by RockinHarry
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One thing that is worth keeping in mind is that as players, what we know about various bits of ordnance and their performance has been reported as averages. That's what we read about and that's what we expect to encounter in the games we play. But if you have read a lot of histories and first person accounts, you may have come across some very distinctly non-average events where people either survived or did not survive in situations quite contrary to our expectations. As I am fond of saying, "It was a big war and and anything that had an even remote possibility of occurring almost certainly did, and probably more than once." I think it is one of the great successes of CM that the unlikely does happen, without happening all the time.

Michael

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On 5/26/2019 at 11:29 PM, IanL said:

Yep, I would not expect any changes in this either. Seems to be working as expected. I will point out that we sometimes get people complaining that RPGs are under modeled because not enough casualties are caused.

I have no problems with a tiny RG (or similar) killing lots of guys when all bunching up behind a single window. Wrong tactic on the receiving end then. My problem is the sometimes extended blast(??!) effect reaching to unbelievable places (wall example above). Maybe it´s "fixed" in the meantime, I don´t know.

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Not directly on topic, but close! You might be interested in taking a look at the (west-german) videos on "fighting in built-up areas" linked in this thread: 

 

 

Even if you don't understand german, there are many examples that show how buildings were fortified. 

Edited by Kaunitz
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