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Hard Cat Rules v2I - Simple to Use Command & Control Rules - UPDATED 01 JUNE 2022


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20 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

My intent was to get people thinking about property planning an artillery mission and especially thinking about duration... maybe today its easy to cancel a fire mission.. but in WW2?  I am not so sure.

Understood.

 

20 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

If you look at Rule 1.a an attacker in an Attack or Assault scenario can indeed fire indirectly on turn 1, so he could plan it during setup.  

Ah, so it is.  Very good.

 

20 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

This rule has been removed from the latest iteration of the rules.  It was more a hindrance to be honest than a help in play test to be honest.  I have seen RockinHarry's very interesting mod, but I really need the enemy icons to be honest... I would rather the unit info box be blacked out.. that would be more in lone with what we really need.  Maybe an enterprising modder can whip that up.  ;)  

Looks more like a proper SitMap with the OpFor icons displayed doesn't it? :lol:.  I was hoping the "No OpFor Icon Mod" might address a few issues like area fire and the player's god like view.  However I've just been playing around on a test map and have not attempted an actual battle with the mod.  If the mod turns out to make play to difficult I think the area fire rules in your PDF will work very well. 

A blacked out unit info box................. interesting......... that might be an even better solution.     

 

20 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

When I say "superior" I meant direct superior.. so if the unit is a Squad, it's Platoon Leader would have to have the UI contact and the squad would have to be in C2.  I have an example of this rule in action in the CMSF 2 AAR thread... this post and this one.

Yes, very good.  This should work well.  

 

20 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

My thinking behind this rule is that irregular forces should not be able to maneuver as flexibly as a regular unit... it has nothing to do, in my opinion, with how well they know the ground but is a reflection of their less than professional leadership and training.

With the two movement legs this rule is probably workable in most situations.  Another thing I failed to think of is the time frame.  This is two movement legs per minute.  Doesn't sound as restrictive when thought about within the time frame.    

 

20 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I would do this check during the order phase... I will keep the distance check in mind for this rule.. but I like the ease of clicking and checking for LOS to the HQ... also I expect that HQs would want to keep these teams close... at least until they dropped them off in a position.. but they would have to return for them eh?  Adds to the challenge.

Hmm, I read the newest rule set v2e and if I understand rule #5 I don't think this will work as explained.  In the orders phase (even on Iron) all friendly units icons are visible all the time.  It is only during playback phase where friendly units are not visible or only show as a tentative contact etc.  So this method could be used if checked in the last few seconds of playback.  

But here is a situation using the rule during playback.  During the last second of playback the 2nd platoon HQ and the HMG team are about ten meters apart.  But there is a tall wall in-between them.  If you click on the HMG team during playback it will show a FOW icon for 2nd Platoon HQ and vice versa.  Even though they are only 10 meters apart and all the organic fire teams are automatically in C2 out to 50 meters away (again ignoring the Hide stance).  If you click on the HMG team during orders phase it will show show a full icon for 2nd platoon HQ if the HQ is 10 meters away or 500 meters away.  

And yes, having the HQ team return a reasonable distance to the HMG team to give the HMG team new orders is an interesting, realistic challenge.  It makes the limited HQ teams on the map even more valuable and helps to maintain the integrity of platoons.  A player is less likely to have fire teams and attached units scattered over a wide area if this will result in them being out of C2 when playing with these rules.  I use the 50 meter 360o Target Arc on my Platoon HQ.  Any organic teams and attached teams that are in the arc are considered in C2 and can be given orders that orders phase.  For teams that are not in the arc the Lt may have to run 20 meters in their direction and give them their new orders next orders phase.  Keeps the Lt.s in shape. :D  

Link to a thread about Skill Level Iron:

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/119218-skill-level-iron/

 

Edited by MOS:96B2P
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ADVANCED/OPTIONAL RULES:

8. a. i  Example using Iron:  A Squad is NOT within C2 of its PL - but clicking on the Squad shows that it can spot the Company HQ unit. It is considered in C2 and may receive orders as such.  

The same as was said above in the basic rules for attached units.  I don't think clicking on the squad during orders phase will work the way it was intended for these rules.  This also comes up a few times in the advanced rules. 

I like the idea of the Company HQ filling in for the Platoon HQ.  This should work just using the in-game C2 mechanics for organic units in the chain of command shouldn't it? 

Game manual: If a squad or team is out of contact with its immediate superior (usually a platoon HQ) then its company or battalion HQ may provide voice and close visual contact, but not radio or distant-visual contact. This simulates that a higher HQ can step in and provide command-and-control in a limited radius in emergency situations.   

But if the squad in question is a non-organic attached squad the in-game C2 will not work in this situation.  Well, it will but the squad will be out of C2.  You are back to finding a rule for that situation.  

 

8. b. HQ Casualty: If a formation loses its HQ or its officer as a casualty: either the XO Team (etc.) if it contains an officer, or the lowest numbered surviving team/squad or vehicle takes over. To be in C2 all subunits must check LOS (as described above) to determine whether they are in C2 or not to that new Lead team or vehicle. 

If it is an actual XO team that XO team will take over using the in-game C2.  The XO team (the new CO team) may need access to a radio to pass information vertically.  If the team taking over command is A team / 1st Squad then rules will be needed since the in-game C2 system will not recognize A team / 1st Squad as the new platoon HQ team.  I congratulate A team / 1st Squad on their promotion by putting a 50 meter circular target arc (command radius) on them and continue with the mission.  

Below is a link to where a 2IC takes over from a KIA CO with screenshots.  In the screenshot it shows that the 2IC title actually changes to Company HQ.  A little hard to see now due to Photobucket's vandalism.   

 http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120959-2ic-takes-over-from-co/

 

 

9. a. ii. 2.  Example – a player would like to order a Soviet Infantry Squad to move along a path with multiple waypoints, the squad IS within C2 of its Platoon Leader, but the PL is NOT within C2 of its Company HQ, so the Squad can only move one movement leg (Rule 5.b)

Should this one be two movement legs?  Not sure if your intention was to change all the rules to two movement legs or not. 

Good stuff.  These rules should be interesting to use and having them in a PDF is very useful.  Thanks for doing this. 

 

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7 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

heheh.. I do not believe I am wrong with regards to the quality of Russian (or Soviet in WW2 and CMA) NCOs and lower leadership.  They operate at an echelon different from the Western style armies that do have high quality professional NCOs and use initiative as a rule rather than as an exception and where officers and warrant officers fill the traditional role of NCOs in western style armies.

I agree. Everything I have read on the modern Russian military (which admittedly is not a whole lot) shows that while the Russians have tried to professionalize their army, specifically their NCO corps since the fall of the Soviet Union, the effort has been largely ineffective. That doesn't mean that the army itself is ineffective, just that at this level I think Bil has it right that their C2 situation is going to be more rigid/restrictive than NATO counterparts. 

Here is a free PDF (though long) that attempts to detail objectively the way the modern Russian army fights. It is written by Lester Grau, a former combat infantryman in the US Army who wrote other very notable works on the then Soviets in Afghanistan, The Bear Went Over the Mountain as well as other books detailing the Soviet/Russian military.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/Hot Spots/Documents/Russia/2017-07-The-Russian-Way-of-War-Grau-Bartles.pdf

For those looking for a study of a contemporary combat example involving the Russians, this paper titled “Cyborgs at Little Stalingrad”: A Brief History of the Battles of the Donetsk Airport was released a few weeks ago and does a good job (though rather brief) on detailing how the Russian military was able to systematically surround and reduce the Donetsk Airport over a series of months, and paints a very competent picture of the Russians. 
https://www.ausa.org/sites/default/files/publications/LWP-125-Cyborgs-at-Little-Stalingrad-A-Brief-History-of-the-Battle-of-the-Donetsk-Airport.pdf

My intent isn't to turn this discussion into something not about C2 rules, just to show that while the Russians may have perceived disadvantages, there is reason to what they do and it can be very effective. 

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Bil

Thanks for posting these rules and the accompanying AAR.  I'll try them out on a few solo games to see how they operate.

I have experimented myself with a few different rules that try to address the player's god-like command of the battlefield & have a few observations.

Area Fire

I'm not sure I agree with how AF-2 is restricted.  Suppose a squad was split into 3 teams on a scouting patrol and 2 of the teams encountered a tentative contact in the same AS.  This rule would prevent the squad leader ordering these 2 teams to use area fire to suppress the tentative contact while the 3rd team to flanked the position (because more than one team has a sound contact in the same AS).  Instead I'd suggest folding AF-2 and AF-3 into one category of AF - Area Fire Controlled by Autonomous Unit Leader.  A squad on scouting patrol would then be an Autonomous Unit and could act independently of the PL.  Later in the battle, however, when the squad has rejoined the platoon, the PL would be the Autonomous Unit Leader, not the squad leader.

Viewing the Map/Battlefield

Several other respondents have talked about restricting being able to move the camera around the battlefield.  You experimented with not allowing clicking on enemy unit icons but decided that was too much of a pain for any added realism.  I've tried a few approaches and thought the following works ok:

  1. You can move the camera anywhere on the battlefield at viewing level 4 or above
  2. At viewing levels 1, 2, or 3 you can only view the battlefield from the location of one of your units.  You may only zoom to a maximum magnification of 8x.  (Some flexibility in moving the camera is allowed in plotting moves through tricky terrain.)
  3. You may click on enemy units for the purpose of determining which of your units can see that unit.  You should not tab to the location of the enemy unit.
  4. You may use the LOS tool freely when plotting movement orders.

The effect of these restrictions is to provide some FOW while not overly restricting playability.

Movement orders

In my opinion this is the trickiest area to try to balance playability with realism.  As the god-like commander you can have a scout team identify an enemy position and then next turn order your armour to move into a position where they will be able to spot and destroy that position - even if there is no C2 link between the scout team and the tanks.  Or - your scouts might spot and AT gun that would take out your armour if they continue their current mission, so you cancel their current mission and issue them with new orders - even though they are blissfully unaware of the threat!

I haven't really found anything specific I'm happy with yet to counter this.  However the basic philosophy could be along these lines:

  1. When issuing orders players should try to place themselves in the boots of the unit commander and only issue orders consistent with information known to that commander (including what their superior might have ordered them to achieve.)
  2. Each Autonomous Unit(usually a platoon) should have a mission.  To avoid book-keeping, players should issue full orders to all teams in the Autonomous Unit to complete the mission (move to this position, move to contact, etc).  
  3. Only units in C2 with the Autonomous Unit's HQ can receive these orders.  Units that are not in C2 with HQ should continue to execute current orders.
  4. Players should only change or cancel orders based on information known to the unit (i.e.its contacts or tentative contacts).  Let's say team A spots an enemy unit.  You should not be able to alter the orders for team B based on that information until team B has a tentative contact for that unit because that represents the flow of information (and orders) from team A to team B (potentially via Platoon HQ).
  5. Unless the unit is in C2 with its Autonomous Unit commander its only choice is to continue current orders or seek the nearest cover and halt.

So in the previous examples the tanks should not be able to get new orders until they too had the tentative contacts that the scout unit had spotted.  Of course this is potentially problematic because often units are in different chains of command - but reading contemporaneous accounts lack of coordination between units, particularly tanks and infantry was not uncommon.

In practice I fear this might require too much discipline for players to adhere to!

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@Bil Hardenberger You asked for an example of battlefield leadership style. That's easy to answer: За мном!/Follow me!

It is really not my business commenting on the state of Russian NCO's, considering that I served in the Serbian Army. We too have faced similar issues with "modernization" and "professionalization".

As far as the rules and games are concerned, I would like to point out that Russian and Ukrainian formations all have hand held radios, so that even a common rifle squad with no visual or audio contacts with it's HQ, has a radio link to it's HQ. That link is gone with Medium Electronic Warfare settings, but that setting has no influence on manpack radio sets, so plt HQ have connection to Company HQ and Company to Battalion. Strong Electronic Warfare settings are needed to sever the link. Playing the game with Nation specific rules with no EW settings makes those rules redundant. Nobody plays CM A, so it's a non-issue. Syrians are the only one affected, though you could cheese it by adding FO's to platoons.

For Red Thunder, I would argue that Recon Company (three recon platoon) and Support Company (two recon platoons and one sapper platoon) should be exempt from any restrictions. Candidates for recon platoons and companies have above average mental and physical capabilities and due to nature of their missions (goes beyond simple scouting) I suggest that they be exempt from movement rules.

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3 hours ago, Aurelius said:

For Red Thunder, I would argue that Recon Company (three recon platoon) and Support Company (two recon platoons and one sapper platoon) should be exempt from any restrictions. Candidates for recon platoons and companies have above average mental and physical capabilities and due to nature of their missions (goes beyond simple scouting) I suggest that they be exempt from movement rules.

That's a good point.....IIRC this remained the case throughout the Soviet era (& presumably may do so still).

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3 hours ago, Aurelius said:

For Red Thunder, I would argue that Recon Company (three recon platoon) and Support Company (two recon platoons and one sapper platoon) should be exempt from any restrictions. Candidates for recon platoons and companies have above average mental and physical capabilities and due to nature of their missions (goes beyond simple scouting) I suggest that they be exempt from movement rules.

This is already in the rules.  Under exceptions is Recon platoons performing a recon mission.  

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@Aurelius , it was indeed intended for Recon Platoons.  How often is an entire Recon company performing a reconnaissance mission in a CM game?  If it was then it too would be exempt. 

However IMO if that company/platoon is performing a normal combat function (attacking or defending, etc) then it should not be exempt primarily because it will then fall under the same chain of command (with all the constraints that entails) as all other formations supporting the main mission.

Bil

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
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52 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

However IMO if that company/platoon is performing a normal combat function (attacking or defending, etc) then it should not be exempt primarily because it will then fall under the same chain of command (with all the constraints that entails) as all other formations supporting the main mission.

This makes very good sense.....It's the price you pay when you treat every tool as a hammer.  B)

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18 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

ADVANCED/OPTIONAL RULES:

8. a. i  Example using Iron:  A Squad is NOT within C2 of its PL - but clicking on the Squad shows that it can spot the Company HQ unit. It is considered in C2 and may receive orders as such.  

The same as was said above in the basic rules for attached units.  I don't think clicking on the squad during orders phase will work the way it was intended for these rules.  This also comes up a few times in the advanced rules. 

I like the idea of the Company HQ filling in for the Platoon HQ.  This should work just using the in-game C2 mechanics for organic units in the chain of command shouldn't it? #1

Game manual: If a squad or team is out of contact with its immediate superior (usually a platoon HQ) then its company or battalion HQ may provide voice and close visual contact, but not radio or distant-visual contact. This simulates that a higher HQ can step in and provide command-and-control in a limited radius in emergency situations.   

But if the squad in question is a non-organic attached squad the in-game C2 will not work in this situation.  Well, it will but the squad will be out of C2.  You are back to finding a rule for that situation.   #2

  1. I don't think this is something that is really clear in-game is it?  At least I have never noticed a unit tracing a C2 line to a higher echelon HQ in game before.  I think for clarity we still need to find a technique that will work to everybody's satisfaction. 
  2. Exactly.. we will come back to this later in this post...
Quote

8. b. HQ Casualty: If a formation loses its HQ or its officer as a casualty: either the XO Team (etc.) if it contains an officer, or the lowest numbered surviving team/squad or vehicle takes over. To be in C2 all subunits must check LOS (as described above) to determine whether they are in C2 or not to that new Lead team or vehicle. 

If it is an actual XO team that XO team will take over using the in-game C2.  The XO team (the new CO team) may need access to a radio to pass information vertically.  If the team taking over command is A team / 1st Squad then rules will be needed since the in-game C2 system will not recognize A team / 1st Squad as the new platoon HQ team.  I congratulate A team / 1st Squad on their promotion by putting a 50 meter circular target arc (command radius) on them and continue with the mission.  

Below is a link to where a 2IC takes over from a KIA CO with screenshots.  In the screenshot it shows that the 2IC title actually changes to Company HQ.  A little hard to see now due to Photobucket's vandalism.   

 http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120959-2ic-takes-over-from-co/

I really appreciate the link, and I always suspected this.. but couldn't remember seeing it in action.  That will simplify things somewhat... I do have one question though.. does this happen if JUST the Commander is a casualty or does the entire HQ Team have to become casualties?  I wouldn't want a radio operator commanding my platoon. 

Quote

9. a. ii. 2.  Example – a player would like to order a Soviet Infantry Squad to move along a path with multiple waypoints, the squad IS within C2 of its Platoon Leader, but the PL is NOT within C2 of its Company HQ, so the Squad can only move one movement leg (Rule 5.b)

Should this one be two movement legs?  Not sure if your intention was to change all the rules to two movement legs or not. 

Yeah, I will need to fix that.. should be two legs (one waypoint) in all of these out of C2 situations now.

Quote

Good stuff.  These rules should be interesting to use and having them in a PDF is very useful.  Thanks for doing this. 

I have tremendous respect for you and what you have done for CM and helping to understand the depth of the game.. so this means a lot.

 

DETERMINING C2 For Attached Units & to Higher Echelon HQ 

Okay, now on to determining C2 against higher echelon HQs or for Attached Units.  @MOS:96B2P, I played around with your method (use a target arc fan to see if the HQ unit falls within 50m, but it had one drawback... it did not return a determination as to whether the HQ unit was within LOS or not regardless of whether it was within 50m.. the following examples should help explain how I think we should do these checks:

I suggest we do this with a Target order, it will be IN C2 if  the following three Conditions are met:

  1. The higher echelon HQ MUST be within the unit's direct chain of command (if checking against a Company HQ then that must be that unit's Company HQ, a neighboring Company is not eligible) - For Attached Units the HQ it is checking against MUST be the HQ unit it has been attached to
  2. It is within 50m of the higher echelon HQ
  3. It has a clear Line of Sight (LOS) to said higher echelon HQ

EXAMPLES:

CHECKING AGAINST HIGHER ECHELON HQ: In the following example, this split Infantry Squad is not in C2 to its immediate superior (2nd Platoon HQ), but it's Company HQ (hierarchically just above its Platoon HQ so within its chain of command)...

...the 1st Team checks LOS to it's Company HQ...

  1. Condition 1 IS satisfied (this is the unit's direct Company HQ)
  2. Condition 2 is NOT satisfied as the team is 51m from the Company HQ
  3. Condition 3 is NOT satisfied as it does not have clear LOS to the Company HQ

This unit is NOT in C2

C2-Check-Team+01.png

 

...the 2nd Team checks LOS to it's Company HQ...

  1. Condition 1 IS satisfied (this is the unit's direct Company HQ)
  2. Condition 2 IS satisfied as the team is 40m from the Company HQ
  3. Condition 3 is NOT satisfied as it does not have clear LOS to the Company HQ

This unit is NOT in C2

C2-Check-Team+02.png

 

ATTACHED UNIT CHECKING C2:

In this next example, this mortar team has been cross-attached to a different platoon...the Mortar Team checks LOS to that HQ...

  1. Condition 1 IS satisfied as this is the HQ it has been Attached to
  2. Condition 2 IS satisfied as the team is 20m from the Platoon HQ
  3. Condition 3 IS satisfied as it has clear LOS to the Platoon HQ (Blue Target line)

This unit IS in C2

C2-Check-Mortar.png

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
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These rules are really interesting, thank you for putting them together!

52 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I don't think this is something that is really clear in-game is it?  At least I have never noticed a unit tracing a C2 line to a higher echelon HQ in game before.

From my observations when a unit is in command from a higher echelon, that doesn't create a red command line, and it doesn't turn the chain-of-command lights from red x's into green dots, BUT it does give C2 icons in the UI. An example from a recent game--A team, 3rd Squad, 2nd Platoon, B Company is out of C2 from its Platoon HQ, so it doesn't have a red line, but it is close to its Company HQ (inset) so it gets the UI icons for voice and close visual command. I don't think this would be too hard to keep track of in-game if the rules depended on it.

951673041_C2diagram.thumb.png.e6f3899dabd3b2ecf306e334bae14f0f.png

 

Edited by General Liederkranz
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1 hour ago, General Liederkranz said:

These rules are really interesting, thank you for putting them together!

From my observations when a unit is in command from a higher echelon, that doesn't create a red command line, and it doesn't turn the chain-of-command lights from red x's into green dots, BUT it does give C2 icons in the UI. An example from a recent game--A team, 3rd Squad, 2nd Platoon, B Company is out of C2 from its Platoon HQ, so it doesn't have a red line, but it is close to its Company HQ (inset) so it gets the UI icons for voice and close visual command. I don't think this would be too hard to keep track of in-game if the rules depended on it.

951673041_C2diagram.thumb.png.e6f3899dabd3b2ecf306e334bae14f0f.png

 

Interesting.  Thank you.  I will need to do some tests and consider this.

Bil

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Okay, specifically for @MOS:96B2P, and @General Liederkranz... I just checked this in two games and interestingly, it works great in the WW2 games (CMFI anyway) but not in CMSF2.  Maybe its because I was working with Syrians and they don't have this feature as part of their toolbox?  Does anybody have any answers for that?  

As for in CMFI... it works beautifully.

In the following image, the PzShreck Team is not in C2 to either its immediate superior (3rd Platoon) or to its Company HQ (2d Company).  Note the target line in each image will show the range.. in this case the 2d Company HQ is at 53m:

Higher+Ech+HQ+C2+Test+01.png 

 

In the following image, the PzShreck Team IS in C2 (Voice only) to its Company HQ (2d Company - 43m):

Higher+Ech+HQ+C2+Test+02.png

 

In the following image, the PzShreck Team IS in C2 (Voice & Visual) to its Company HQ (2d Company - 23m):

Higher+Ech+HQ+C2+Test+03.png

 

So that was very interesting and I'm not sure why I haven't noticed it before..maybe I had and deleted the info from my brain's HD.  ;)  Anyway, I also tested this against the A Company HQ not in the same hierarchy and the Team acted as expected, it would not link C2 to that HQ team as it was effectively out of network... however using the Battalion HQ it could indeed get in C2 to it as expected (in network).

So this is great.  I will be editing my rules to reflect this.  Still wonder what's up with the Syrians in CMSF2 though...

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
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4 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
  1. does this happen if JUST the Commander is a casualty or does the entire HQ Team have to become casualties?  I wouldn't want a radio operator commanding my platoon. 

If the CO from a HQ team is KIA the HQ team will no longer function as the HQ.  (Unless that HQ team has an XO as part of the HQ team. If he is still alive he takes over)  The survivors of the HQ team will retain the HQ floating icon but will not be in command.  This is probably seen with some frequency when tank commanders get their heads shot off.  When the platoon CO/TC is KIA command of the platoon goes to the XO in the 1st Tank.  If both the CO & XO are KIA the platoon loses C2.   

Below are some screenshots of a Infantry platoon HQ that only has the radio operator still alive.  The squads no longer recognize the HQ team as the HQ even though the HQ floating icon remains. 

DgkILQ0h.jpg

blqu5Wch.jpg 

 

4 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
  1. I have tremendous respect for you and what you have done for CM and helping to understand the depth of the game.. so this means a lot.

Thank you Sir.  You lead the way.  I just followed your example. 

 

4 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
  1.  

DETERMINING C2 For Attached Units & to Higher Echelon HQ 

Okay, now on to determining C2 against higher echelon HQs or for Attached Units.  @MOS:96B2P, I played around with your method (use a target arc fan to see if the HQ unit falls within 50m, but it had one drawback... it did not return a determination as to whether the HQ unit was within LOS or not regardless of whether it was within 50m.. the following examples should help explain how I think we should do these checks:

I suggest we do this with a Target order, it will be IN C2 if  the following three Conditions are met:

  1. The higher echelon HQ MUST be within the unit's direct chain of command (if checking against a Company HQ then that must be that unit's Company HQ, a neighboring Company is not eligible) - For Attached Units the HQ it is checking against MUST be the Attached HQ unit
  2. It is within 50m of the higher echelon HQ
  3. It has a clear Line of Sight (LOS) to said higher echelon HQ

I think there are two related but slightly different situations.  A C2 check with the platoon HQ and a C2 check with a higher HQ.  If the units are all in the same chain of command the game takes care of this for the player in the three C2 boxes in the UI.  If a non organic unit is attached then some rules are needed.  For simplicity and consistency the rules should probably be as similar to the in-game C2 rules as possible.  

The max distance a higher HQ can fill in is at close visual which is 96 meters (12 action spots).  This of course is longer than the 50 meter voice C2 which automatically has all sub units in C2.  50 meters and under is automatic and so is a good rule of thumb and why I set my command arcs at that distance for WW2 infantry.

Using the Target order for number three will work for attached units.  It may be needed for C2 checks in both situations depending on how closely you want to follow the in-game C2 for organic units.  The Target order could be used for a C2 check between an attached unit & immediate HQ.  It could also be used between an attached unit and a "filling in higher HQ" out to a max distance of 96 meters. 

Example of the current three checks system in action:

An attached engineer team and the Platoon HQ are on opposite sides of a tall wall.  Substitute the wall for tall bocage, hiding behind a low wall a modest difference in elevation etc.  

As I understand the current rules the engineer team would fail a C2 check because of number three.   However an organic fire team 50 meters away from the same platoon HQ and on the other side of a modular building would pass the in-game C2 check.  Granted the fire team would also fail the three checks system but by game mechanics would still actually be in C2.  That raises another question, I'm not clear on.  Does the three check system only apply to attached units and organic units?  

Trying to make it fit game mechanics A unit will be IN C2 if  the following three Conditions are met:

  1. The higher echelon HQ MUST be within the unit's direct chain of command (if checking against a Company HQ then that must be that unit's Company HQ, a neighboring Company is not eligible) - For Attached Units the HQ it is checking against MUST be the Attached HQ unit
  2. And if it is within 50m of the higher echelon HQ C2 is automatic. (so no wrong side of the wall situation)
  3. If it is between 50 meters and 96 meters AND has a clear Line of Sight (LOS) to said higher echelon HQ.

Or another solution to try to keep it simple.  Treat the attached units different than organic.  Attached units must always be within 50 meters of the HQ they are attached to or within 50 meters of the "filling in higher HQ" resulting in the below.  

  1. The higher echelon HQ MUST be within the unit's direct chain of command (if checking against a Company HQ then that must be that unit's Company HQ, a neighboring Company is not eligible) - For Attached Units the HQ it is checking against MUST be the Attached HQ unit
  2. It is within 50m of the higher echelon HQ or the attached HQ. (again no wrong side of the wall situation)
Edited by MOS:96B2P
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3 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

From my observations when a unit is in command from a higher echelon, that doesn't create a red command line, ... BUT it does give C2 icons in the UI. 

I was just forming my thoughts in my head to say just that. I couldn't have said it any better. And you graphics even have my tactical icons, so, my pics wouldn't have looked any better either. :)

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By the way @MOS:96B2P I noticed you are using an older version of my icons there.. I do have a newer more advanced set available at this link... these are threat based so you can have the opposing force always be represented with the diamond shape symbology:

WW2+CM-Threat+Icon+Key.png

7 minutes ago, IanL said:

Sounds like a possible bug. If the same goes for NATO forces then it definitely is if it is only Syrian then I'd have a discussion first but it hardly seems fair :)

I found it impossible to test the Bluefor units as every time I selected one every unit had a radio.  ;)  It is possible that is might be a bug.

 

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
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10 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

If the CO from a HQ team is KIA the HQ team will no longer function as the HQ.  (Unless that HQ team has an XO as part of the HQ team. If he is still alive he takes over)  The survivors of the HQ team will retain the HQ floating icon but will not be in command.  This is probably seen with some frequency when tank commanders get their heads shot off.  When the platoon CO/TC is KIA command of the platoon goes to the XO in the 1st Tank.  If both the CO & XO are KIA the platoon loses C2.   

Below are some screenshots of a Infantry platoon HQ that only has the radio operator still alive.  The squads no longer recognize the HQ team as the HQ even though the HQ floating icon remains. 

Awesome appreciate the detail.. I love that the game takes all this into account.. that'll make it easier.

I want to mull over the rest of your post before responding.. I already did some tests of the higher echelon HQs as noted in my post above yours, so yeah that also will make things easier.

Bil

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9 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I do have a newer more advanced set available at this link... these are threat based so you can have the opposing force always be represented with the diamond shape symbology:  

Thank you!! 

 

9 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I found it impossible to test the Bluefor units as every time I selected one every unit had a radio.  ;)  It is possible that is might be a bug.  

Hmmm, I just killed off a US platoon HQ team in CMSF2 and the squads are in C2 with the Company HQ.  However there might be a difference in how the chain of command lights work.  @General Liederkranz is your screenshot from CMFI? 

Also nice post up above General +1.       

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13 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Hmmm, I just killed off a US platoon HQ team in CMSF2 and the squads are in C2 with the Company HQ.  However there might be a difference in how the chain of command lights work.  @General Liederkranz is your screenshot from CMFI? 

Also nice post up above General +1.    

Thanks! My pictures are from CMFI. It hadn't occurred to me this could be different between titles. 

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Okay @MOS:96B2P following are my edits for the Attached Unit C2 check, and for the Higher Echelon HQ Units and HQ Casualty Rules:

  • ATTACHED UNITS - If a support team has been attached to a formation other than its organic HQ, it is considered to be within C2 as long as it can pass a manual C2 check to the HQ unit it has been attached to. 
    • Manual C2 Check - At least 2 of 3 of following conditions MUST be met:
      •  The HQ it is checking against MUST be the Attached HQ unit
      • It is within 50 meters of the HQ Unit (Voice C2)
      • AND/OR:
      •  It has a clear Line of Sight (LOS) to said higher echelon HQ out to 96 meters (Visual C2)
    • This manual check is performed by placing a target line from the unit to the center of the HQ unit, if it is blue and unbroken then the unit has clear LOS

 

  • HEADQUARTERS UNITS
    • A unit may check for C2 against a higher echelon HQ. 
      •  The game will control this feature
      • If not in C2 to its immediate superior, but it is to the superior above that, it will show on the unit’s control panel as being in either Sound, Visual or both C2 range to the higher echelon HQ unit
    • HQ Casualty: 
      • If a formation loses its HQ or its officer as a casualty: the XO Team (etc.) if it contains an officer will take over.  
      • The game will control this handoff unless there isn’t another officer to take over…
      • …in that case the lowest numbered surviving team/squad or vehicle will take over... in these cases the C2 check will need to be performed manually as described in Rule 5.

Really appreciate your help ironing these down.. I actually learned a few things about the game today.. ;) 

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
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9 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Really appreciate your help ironing these down..  

You're welcome.  It's interesting stuff that I enjoy thinking about, testing and working on. 

Now for these inconsistent command lights .........  

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