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I'm on 5th mission of russian campaign (Crossing the Dniepr), and the US tank from screenshot below basically halted my entire force. It was well hidden between two houses with a perfect view down the road I had to advance. I suspected that crossroad was well guarded, so I first shelled that area with 155mm heavily. I don't know if I hit it then, but that whole area took a lot of damage. After that, I sent a t-90 down the road and it got hit immediately and burst into flames. After that, I used infantry squads to spot it from the flank because I knew the approximate location. 

After pinpointing the exact location, I was able to call in artillery (point target) with my forward observers in church tower (they couldn't see the tank, but i was able to place a target on it). The US tank took several direct 155mm and 203mm hits (visible on screenshots) and all buildings around it were destroyed. I also used all my heavy helicopter ordnance on this guy (none of the guided missles were able to hit it, they all hit the ground or trees 30m away from the tank?!). He still managed to survive somehow.

At this point, I was basically out of heavy air and artillery rounds, so I sent two t-90s in hope they would spot him first, but it turned to catastrophe with both my tanks destroyed without even firing. 

How can this thing survive multiple 203mm rounds? Also, why did all my helicopter guided missles miss (even after artillery destroyed surrounding vegetation and buildings)? Also, briefing mentions precision artillery strikes, but all I have is point/area/linear with general/personell options. Are there guided artillery rounds in this game? Any tips on this situation?

cmbs.jpg

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Posted (edited)

 

13 minutes ago, Trica said:

Also, why did all my helicopter guided missles miss (even after artillery destroyed surrounding vegetation and buildings)? Also, briefing mentions precision artillery strikes, but all I have is point/area/linear with general/personell options. Are there guided artillery rounds in this game? Any tips on this situation?

 

he has APS (active protection system)

for Rus/Ukr side  you will have to use special FO team to call the PGM ( the one with laser designator ) because their PGM is guided by laser 

 

 

Edited by Chibot Mk IX

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Posted (edited)

There's been a lot of discussion about the poor effects of Russian PGMs in particular and artillery in general on AFVs, notably Abrams & Bradley.....A significant number of us agree entirely with the points you raise. 

That tank should be as dead as a dodo.  :mellow:

2 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

he has APS (active protection system)

Not after he's been pounded with heavy artillery he doesn't:

2 hours ago, Trica said:

Also, why did all my helicopter guided missles miss (even after artillery destroyed surrounding vegetation and buildings)?

Trophy's protective shields wouldn't stop those fragments, the radar would be junk, the APS would OOS.  :rolleyes:

Not to mention the concussion effects on the crew, assuming the tank weren't actually blown to bits.....Which it would be.

2 hours ago, Trica said:

Are there guided artillery rounds in this game? Any tips on this situation?

Yes, but don't waste your time.....Typically you'll immobilise it at best and strangely although all the sensors are often displayed as being trashed they never seem to be blinded or even significantly degraded in real terms.  :unsure:

I've used nine 122mm precision munitions on a Bradley and it survived, still mobile and apparently fully functional, or sufficiently so for it to then defeat a T-90A (that knew exactly where it was) in a head on engagement immediately thereafter.

Utterly ridiculous.

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Oh, I'm new to CMBS, didn't know that APS is so overpowered.

But why do helicopter ATGMs miss  the target entirely (they hit ground or some building 30-50m away from tank)? I thought APS blows up incoming projectiles, but to me it seems they fail to guide...

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Posted (edited)

Sorry I'd assumed they were shot down by APS based on the comment from @Chibot Mk IX.....I've not studied APS to know whether it is overpowered and that's not a claim that I'm making.

Without watching the footage of your gunship attacks I couldn't even hazard a guess as to why they were not effective.....In my experience Hinds are one of the stronger cards in Red's hands.

My issue is, like yours, with the really quite remarkable (to put it politely) resilience of the Abrams & Bradley to artillery generally & Red PGMs in particular.....It rather begs the question; if those weapons can't actually kill their primary targets, why would Russia deploy them?  :rolleyes:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 

Not after he's been pounded with heavy artillery he doesn't:

In RL , yes, that M1 should have been claimed as a "mission kill" . Track gone, gun fail, turret not move. Trophy APS system on the turret should become useless trash after first 152mm landing.    

But this is CMBS

From the screenshot the MG , track and engine are gone. Trophy marked as orange, so it is still working....

Edited by Chibot Mk IX

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Posted (edited)

Dude.....Look at all those craters!  :o

If those were from 203mm guns that tank should be upside down and half buried, large parts of it should be stoved in as if hit with a massive hammer.....Because they just were!  :rolleyes:

2 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

But this is CMBS

I'm really starting to think so.  :mellow:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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In Real Life, as in Combat Mission - if the tank was disabled somewhere useless, then it'll be useless. If it's where it needs to be, then it's not a mission kill.

Abrams with APS are a nightmare to kill. Something that compounds the issue is that most of the "antitank" labelled air assets that the Russians have will rely on ATGMs, that Trophy will usually shoot down.

The most reliable tools the Russians have are MBT main guns, which *can* kill them frontally, but will only reliably do so from the sides, and anything that can volley-fire ATGMs, like the BMP-2M and Khrizantema. Even then, you're going to have better results with the tank main gun.

I'm not going to speculate as to whether these are over-modelled or not, since I can't do anything about that, but you do have tools that will kill them.

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Posted (edited)

Here's the main thread dealing with AFV protection from artillery:

Taken from that thread.....Direct 152mm or 203mm hit on a T-64BV:

id3794-05.jpg

id3794-10.jpg

As this was done by a single round, a precision guided munition is a very likely candidate.....They seem a bit more effective in real life, don't they.  ;)

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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I am in agreement with @Sgt.Squarehead I fired 9 122mm PGMs at a Brad - exploded all around it  - one actually underneath it - and it was still functional till a T90A shot it, and I fired another 3 at a Bradley, to no visible effect - it was mobile. (Was it Galloping Horse Downfall?  I will write some comments on that scenario when I have finished it).

It's incredibly frustrating and not realistic - especially in the thread from HerrTom which has a lot of evidence that even near misses will do substantial damage to armoured vehicles. I can understand that too much arty can unbalance a battle but fighting against Abrams you can't really take them head on and using PGMs would seem to be a good option  - if they worked!

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, JulianJ said:

(Was it Galloping Horse Downfall?  I will write some comments on that scenario when I have finished it).

Yes.  ;)

Sounds like you did a bit better than me, your T-90 won the engagement!  :D

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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I find it hard to believe ANY tank is going to shrug off multiple 203mm rounds. If nothing else the size of the projectile will cause damage besides the HE.

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Yes, for the last two or three years I've been frustrated by the ability of t-72s to shrug off multiple hits from 155mm PGMs, receiving little or no damage even from direct hits. Can the real-life rounds be this ineffective?

Michael

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Funnily enough, the only Bradley knocked out by artillery was hit by an ordinary 122mm round (not PGM) during a barrage. 12 PGMs were no more use than harsh language. I do think BF should look at this issue. As Michael points out this is an across the game issue, not one with a particular side or weapon.

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Posted (edited)

The fact that the IS-2 was able to knock out tanks with HE-rounds during WW2 should serve as evidence of the power of large caliber high explosive shells, and especially coming from above and hitting the weaker top armor.   

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that a 47 kilogram (103 lb) M795 155mm projectile would just plink off a tank, even the mighty Abrams. Even if such a projectile wouldn't penetrate the armour, the sheer shock force should cause serious damage to subsystems and potentially cause internal pieces of equipment to become secondary projectiles, injuring or killing the crew.  

Edited by AtheistDane

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Posted (edited)

I actually did a little test where I pitted one platoon of Abrams (not APS) vs four companies of T-90s. I chose a map with a narrow width but a long length, mostly rural with a few trees and houses. It was also a hilly map if I recall. Anyways, I took the Abrams and just lined them up abreast along a ridge-line but not hull-down. I then had the platoons from the T-90 companies line up in a inverted-V formation and started advancing towards the Abrams position. Just in front of the set-up area for the T-90s was a light wooded area. I gave the command to "HUNT" to all units of the four companies (might as well call it a battalion). For the Abrams, I used the "TARGET ARMORED ARC" command to establish interlocking kill cones that spanned both the width and length of the map. The T-90s starting rolling forward and before they even cleared the tree-line, when six T-90s go "BOOM". To save this from becoming a novel, let's just say that by the time the remaining Russian tanks got to the half-way point on the map, a junk-yard laid behind them. They too met a flaming death. They did however, manage to kill one of the Abrams. Ahem. What can I say? Nothing, other than the code for the Abrams should be brought down a couple of notches.

Edited by WhiteWolf65

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42 minutes ago, WhiteWolf65 said:

Nothing, other than the code for the Abrams should be brought down a couple of notches.

Remember that 'shoot down' you once mentioned?  ;)

However I'll happily stand alongside you and share the flak on this one.....Damned things are way over the top!  :rolleyes:

OK, that said.....Take cover!  Incoming!  :D

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8 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Remember that 'shoot down' you once mentioned?  ;)

Yes, I most certainly do. Let them fire away.

However I'll happily stand alongside you and share the flak on this one.....Damned things are way over the top!  :rolleyes:

Over the top? That is a true understatement.

OK, that said.....Take cover!  Incoming!  :D

Have at thee naive, or as they say in the SCA "Lay On".😎

 

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It's impressive that the crew is intact, after concentrated 200mm+ fire.

In my CM campaign experience -- the obvious approach is always killzone. My advice is to focus on the flanks, probe for weaknesses and go with the path of least resistance. 

That Abrams is a tough nut, in that position. As your tank found out, he's like Han Solo. I say, avoid him, and focus on clearing the buildings. Being immobilized and flanked by infantry is a tanker's worst nightmare -- APS or not.

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The photo of the hit on the T64 may be misleading. An artillery hit may, perhaps,  have simply started an engine fire that eventually spread to the autoloader magazine. Then BOOM! I recall the first Stryker destroyed in Iraq was hit by a roadside IED which caused a small engine fire, which unfortunately spread to some stored demolition charges... then BOOM.

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This is true, but it's far from the only one.....If you look back through the linked thread there are some images of T-72s (& possibly some more T-64s) that have received (IIRC) a single hit from a 152mm round, they clearly have not been affected by fire.

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On 6/3/2019 at 5:03 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

This is true, but it's far from the only one.....If you look back through the linked thread there are some images of T-72s (& possibly some more T-64s) that have received (IIRC) a single hit from a 152mm round, they clearly have not been affected by fire.

I agree with you 100%. I also agree with comments that a direct hit from a 203 mm/8 inch round on an Abrams would turn the crew of an Abrams into a quivering mass of goo on the floor of the tank. The Abrams is not invincible in reality but it does seem that it is in CMSF and CMBS. Okay, I've got my flak jacket on this morning. Fire away.😎

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure how ATGM missed. If APS defended ATGM from airstrike or gunship, that should be a bug. As far as I remember, CMBS APS has a range of angle and projectile speed to engage against projectile, shouldn't react against ATGM from air. I remember, the old patch fixed this issue, wasn't it? But I can't remember. Too long time ago I played CMBS. 

I'm not sure if 152mm/203mm really could one shot one kill the Abrams. Well, top armor is weaker than front, but HE rounds are not designed to penetrate something. (If it is DPICM then it is totally different story. ) But I agree that such direct hit of 152mm/203mm on Abrams would wreck all subsystems and takes out all observation/detection abilities, and has a good chance to wreck the cannon barrel. IMO that Abrams is already a dead one, so you can approach your RPG team and score a home run. This reminds of the meme "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru" "NANI?"

 

Anyway, speaking of killing Abrams in CMBS.... this really depends on geometry and luck. Back in the day when I used to enjoy CMBS PBEM, I relied on several elements I could try. 

1) Smoke and Khriz (only works in no-wind day) 

Find the hill top or any good open position to observe enemy approach. Deploy the smoke curtain using BMPs or BTRs. Then move Khriz inside the smoke curtain. Khriz can aim and guide his missile using MMW radar, which can see through IR blocking smoke. Smoke curtain usually being blown off (even in no wind condition) ~1 min, so you need to retreat your Khriz, or redeploy smoke in good timing. While opponent's Abrams are killed or hide behind the cover, you can fast move your vehicles to the position you want.  I usually purchase elite Khriz regardless of expensive price tag, to ensure high accuracy. 

2) T-72 spam, try to engage within 500m or closer distance. 

Using T-90AM or T-90A is a waste, because they are not good against Abrams anyway. So I usually rely on regular experience T-72s, try to purchase them as much as possible. Then, approach to the enemy line, circumvent the possible kill zone, use cover as much as possible like infantry. I only moved cover to cover. Then engage Abrams within 500m, sometimes tried to within 100m. This really depends on map. With close distance, weakness of poor long range detection and long range accuracy is minimized, and weakness of weaker APFSDS can be decreased as well. I always try this method in many cold war tactical games. 

3) You can min max 1)+2)

Use Khriz + smoke, force your opponent to cover his Abrams behind the cover. If you are lucky, you can kill one or two. Then, rush your mechanized infantry and tanks to target town or forest and hide them well. Deploy your forces to key terrain before enemies do under Khriz+smoke cover. Later, those forces will make a good ambush homerun in the future. 

If the wind is heavy, your smoke cover will be blown off very fast, like 30 second. This is a problem because 30 second is less than 1 min turn time, which not allow you to control your Khriz before the smoke is gone. In this case, just use T-72s, or use one Khriz very carefully, like place them in curtain 30sec and retreat it...  

4) Use mortar + recon wisely. 

Pre-design artillery strike or call mortar on possible enemy infantry deploy position to deny or harass Javelin team. Proper mortar can reduce enemy infantry number, which is very important. I always bring mortar, small or medium ones, because they have fast reaction speed and quite good to kill infantry and light vehicle. You also need a good recon control to figure out where the enemy troops are. Don't just throw them into the fire, they have better chance to detect enemy elements than your T-72s. So use them wisely, try to save them as long as possible. 

 

All of those needs some practice, and they are not easy of course (especially recon part), but once you get used to it, you can score good number of Abrams during CMBS PBEM...  Still, it is really hard to win US with Rus in CMBS. The real problem for me was Javelin launchers. They are hard to detect, quite cheap, but never forgives my mistake. I sometimes scored a good exchange rate against Abrams using T-72s, but eventually I lost a lot of tanks due to Javelin, and some are killed by Bradley. In some games I got all Abrams tanks, but eventually lose in score because I lost too many T-72s by Bradley and Javelin... This is the reason why one need to practice how to properly use recon teams and mortars to hunt down Javelin teams. If you play a good hour of CMBS PBEM, you will be able to deduct / predict possible Javelin position. 

 

I don't use Russian airforce or gunships in CMBS, because Stinger is damn good. They are infantry, usually hide behind the line, very hard to detect or counter them, and not that expensive so easy to field 3+ number of Stinger teams. Stingers are accurate, so if there are 3 teams, usually they score at least one air asset at the first salvo. Airforces are usually expensive too. I rather buy more mortars. 

 

Even with those, it is not easy to win against good US player. While playing CMBS PBEM repeatedly, several opponents get used to my tactics and my "meta", and he begin to counter them with Abrams and Bradley. I won them several times, but my opponents getting smarter and cunning enough not to fall to my traps. So, playing Russian in CMBS is getting more and more geometry dependent. It is really important to find proper place to maximize your merit. 

 

So, what I wish to say is: It is true that Abrams in CMBS is very tough and difficult enemy to deal with. In that sense, CMBS Russian forces has much steeper learning curve than US. But still, it is more important how to manage them and how to set the tactics. They you can get a good score in the future.  

Edited by exsonic01

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2019 at 10:28 PM, MikeyD said:

The photo of the hit on the T64 may be misleading. An artillery hit may, perhaps,  have simply started an engine fire that eventually spread to the autoloader magazine. Then BOOM! I recall the first Stryker destroyed in Iraq was hit by a roadside IED which caused a small engine fire, which unfortunately spread to some stored demolition charges... then BOOM.

Even 120 mm mortar shell can penetrate several layers of wood on blindage top. 40 kg shell of 2S3 with 5,8 kg of HE and the more 110 kg shell of 2S7 with 17,8 kg of HE, falling from the sky with 9.81g and a big speed is a fatality for 30-45 mm top armor (well, let even 40-70 mm in Abrams).  

Edited by Haiduk

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I think the Abrams destroying the T-90s crossing the map is more accurate than the alternative. The M1A2 Abrams has superior optics and range than any Russian tank sight. It has a 50x zoom whereas the T-90 has a 12x zoom. Russia is severely lacking in the field of optics. The Abrams were stationary and the T-90s were not. 

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