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Bil Hardenberger

CMSF 2 - Co-op AAR (Bil v IanL) Using Realism Rules

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Posted (edited)

This is a very interesting read! :)

I like the limits on area fire. Although it probably gets too complicated, have you considered to add a "delay" on area fire? Surely, it would take some time for the squad and platoon leaders to indicate the targets to their subordinates? When you think about it, even more questions come up (obvious terrain features would be easier/faster to target; tracer ammunition might be handy to indicate targets?). For example, if you note that your mg back there is firing at a particular spot (you can see its tracers), you can assume that something is there and might be allowed to area fire at that spot?

I also wondered whether it would make any difference if you disabled tracer effects (if that's possible via some mod)? Then again, in most situations, it seems as if the fire is immediately revealed anyway, so you don't need to observe the the incoming tracers?

Edited by Kaunitz

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15 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Thanks @IanLits very interesting to see the difference in the intelligence picture at this stage of the battle.

Really enjoying reading about your side of the hill!

10 minutes ago, IanL said:

Indeed @Bil Hardenberger it is always interesting to see and hear what the other side was doing and thinking.

How long ago did you fight this one, just out of curiosity? 

I'd imagine these reports took some time to collate and assemble.

 

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@Kaunitz I think adding the detail you mention above would be tough to determine for most players and besides the intent of these rules is to force the player into thinking like a commander and using command and control more effectively.

2 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

How long ago did you fight this one, just out of curiosity? 

I'd imagine these reports took some time to collate and assemble.

@IanL and I fought this shortly after C2 came out, so its been a while.  Trying to remember what we were thinking and creating the supporting graphics are the hard part but this is all being done on the fly now, none was pre-written.

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I usually run FRAPs while playing to make a visual record of my experiences, but I'm not sure an AAR of mine would have much apart from comedy value....."We snuck up on the infidels, Abdul Haji blew himself to bits, but only dented their tank!"  :ph34r:

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7 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
15 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

How long ago did you fight this one, just out of curiosity? 

I'd imagine these reports took some time to collate and assemble.

@IanL and I fought this shortly after C2 came out, so its been a while.  Trying to remember what we were thinking and creating the supporting graphics are the hard part but this is all being done on the fly now, none was pre-written.

My records say we ended the game January 26th. That is when I zipped up the turn files to my back up drive. So that day or a few days before that.

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23 minutes ago, Kaunitz said:

This is a very interesting read! :)

Thank you. I am glad you are enjoying it.

23 minutes ago, Kaunitz said:

I like the limits on area fire. Although it probably gets too complicated, have you considered to add a "delay" on area fire? Surely, it would take some time for the squad and platoon leaders to indicate the targets to their subordinates? When you think about it, even more questions come up (obvious terrain features would be easier/faster to target; tracer ammunition might be handy to indicate targets?). For example, if you note that your mg back there is firing at a particular spot (you can see its tracers), you can assume that something is there and might be allowed to area fire at that spot?

Interesting ideas. If it were such a thing as a target delayed command like the target briefly but the other way around pause first and then fire then implementing pauses would be workable. The idea of the rules is to create a set of rules that are easy to follow and implement and that don't require tracking of state from turn to turn. I think if it were possible to delay area fire then I would support it. As the game does not offer that the implementation method would require remembering state (who was given AF orders the previous turn so they could be implemented the next) or add a lot of complexity (required a slight change of position with a pause and a target from the new location).

 

23 minutes ago, Kaunitz said:

I also wondered whether it would make any difference if you disabled tracer effects (if that's possible via some mod)?

How so? the area fire rules are based on contacts and C2 tracers have nothing to do with it.

 

23 minutes ago, Kaunitz said:

Then again, in most situations, it seems as if the fire is immediately revealed anyway, so you don't need to observe the the incoming tracers?

Now sure what you mean. The tracers in game are for our play-ability so we, the players, know what is going on. If a low volumn hidden enemy is shooting at you it can take minutes to get even a ? contact (e.g. sniper 500m away) but if an MG opens up yeah lots of people near by will have some or a really good idea where they are.

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Posted (edited)

Always fascinating to compare what each side knows...or doesn’t. Many a time I played and despaired at how poorly I was doing in a battle because I could not see any detrimental effects on my enemy, and pondered giving up. Then at the game end review was stunned at the state my enemy was in. Far worse than I expected! :lol:

Edited by Bud Backer

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Posted (edited)

Minutes 11 through 13

Analysis+COmposite.png

I thought an overview showing all of my pre-battle analysis would come in handy for reference.  To this point @IanL has been pushing down AA2 and AA3.  Other than some long range sniping I have yet to see much movement down AA1... if you don't count the two BMPs and the BRDM-AT that appeared in the last post.  That movement seems to have stopped anyway for now.

My forces obviously are at KT3 elements of 3rd Platoon Mech Infantry.  I also have overwatch elements on KT1 (Blue Ridge) which will change slightly this turn and start to heat up... at KT2 we are both moving toward the Gully Intersection and it could become very deadly ground soon.

Axis Alpha

012-Axis+Alpha-BTR+Overwatch.png

I moved one of my BTRs from the woods where they couldn't see into the Red Gully too well up to the Blue Ridge to join the first BTR in overwatch on the Red Gully approach and also the AA3 wood line approach.  I pulled the ZSU off this ridge and into the Blue Gully to protect it as that BRDM-AT worries me. 

It didn't take long for the new BTR to spot another BRDM.. this time in the woods on the AA3 approach.  We both opened fire, but while my rounds hit, his missed high... it looks like my BTR was hull down to him while his was not... that was the difference in this gun fight.

Turn+12+Gun+Fight.gif

012-Axis+Alpha-End+Turn.png

So it looks like Ian has two Recon Platoons approaching the bridge, one on AA3 and the other on AA2 in the Red Gully.  I don't know if the BRDM that got shot up this turn is knocked out or not, but it took some damage regardless... still with the status of the previous BRDM I hit in the Red Gully also unknown he has eight light armored vehicles in this sector (all BRDMs I suspect) to my four BTRs, one BMP and ZSU.  Whatever happens its going to get hot over the next several turns.

 

Axis Bravo

012-Axis+Bravo.png

This sector has become fairly static.  Ian is still area firing with his BMPs on the Red Ridge and has even moved one of them to the near Red Ridge.  I am keeping my 1st Platoon Mech Infantry (BMPs) in reserve but have moved them forward into the trees to provide overwatch in case Ian attempts to move beyond the Red Ridge or farther into the open area in front of his BRDM-AT.  My infantry at the Farm House have taken significant casualties from his area fire... I have lost one complete Recon Squad, the second has taken a  few casualties, broke and ran back to the assembly area.  The infantry squads in this area have also taken a beating, the two near the Farm House are both down to one man each.  The AT Team is intact though, as is the Infantry Team (with RPG) on the right who also has a Armored Cover Arc in place.  The 3rd Platoon HQ is there to attempt to instill some order.

 

SITMAP to this point:

012-Overview.png

I have labeled the two suspected Recon Platoons on AA2 and AA3, also the suspected Mech Infantry Platoon on the Red Ridge.  The two BMPS (one knocked out) and the BRDM-AT in the center of Ian's line I suspect could be his HQ element.  I have not seen much of his infantry, and I also suspect he is also keeping his Mech Infantry Platoon (BMP) in reserve for now.

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

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22 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Hi @Bil Hardenberger you staying in place at the farm house was a choice of yours or the result from being pinned down by Ian's fires? From your point of view is a forward slope position which I wouldn't want to occupy but probably deny.

Yeah I had always intended on grabbing the Farm House and using it as an LP/OP.  Now however I am using my infantry at the Farm to entice Ian to bring his armor out to play.  ;)  I know they are pretty much out on a limb there, but they can handle it.  

Bil

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The farm looked like too obvious a point to me - it's clearly a good OP, which is why I'd expect Ian to reduce it one way or another.

Of course, at that point you're playing "The Wine in Front of Me" - are you throwing away scouts by sending them into an obvious target, or denying yourself the best observation position by refusing it?

Still, if I was Ian I'd have thrown a few shells at it, at least.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2019 at 7:25 AM, domfluff said:

The farm looked like too obvious a point to me - it's clearly a good OP, which is why I'd expect Ian to reduce it one way or another.

Of course, at that point you're playing "The Wine in Front of Me" - are you throwing away scouts by sending them into an obvious target, or denying yourself the best observation position by refusing it?

Still, if I was Ian I'd have thrown a few shells at it, at least.

I suppose the Farm is a bit like the Monte Python sketch about using the only available bush for cover  ;) 

As far as my force at the Farm goes.. they are doing their job... Ian is targeting the Farm House and the area around it with BMP fire and has caused a lot of casualties, but my force there has also killed a BMP and they are making @IanL hesitant to advance down AA1.. at least that's how it looks to me.  It'll be interesting to read his comments on the action around the Farm House as he fills in his side of the story.

For me, the sacrifice of a couple Recon Squads and most of an infantry squad are well worth the information I have received.  The fact that it has cost him one BMP and the other BMPs in this area seem overly cautious is a bonus.

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Ivan Zaitzev said:

A bit of an Off-topic Bil, but what software are you using for your image editing? I always struggle with arrows.

My arrows are done manually in Photoshop using the Pen tool (with a drop shadow for added style points)... hope that helps.  I would think any image editing software, even the free ones, probably have the same functionality.

Bil

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

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6 hours ago, Ivan Zaitzev said:

I use Gimp and Înkscape but I still struggle with arrows, can't believe you are drawing them manually. 😲

FWIW I used to really struggle with arrows as well. I also have taken to drawing them manually with the pen tool in photoshop, and then adjusting them to make them look more presentable with the available pen manipulation tools in photoshop. Unfortunately as others have said, it is a pain to do and it takes time and practice. I've also found that photoshop is a highly perishable skill, so I tend to take a few notes on how I accomplish something in a word document for easy reference. Plus its always nice to have a great example from Bil to shamelessly emulate yourself!

Back in relation to the AAR, I'm excited for a large fight to break out over this bridge. I really want to see how the C2 rules affect the dynamic of the firefight, and more specifically I want to see how they affect tactically adjusting once a fight is in progress. Reacting to new situations once one is already engaged is extremely difficult in reality, even with good C2. I'm interested to see if the rules depict this at all. 

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11 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

Back in relation to the AAR, I'm excited for a large fight to break out over this bridge. I really want to see how the C2 rules affect the dynamic of the firefight, and more specifically I want to see how they affect tactically adjusting once a fight is in progress. Reacting to new situations once one is already engaged is extremely difficult in reality, even with good C2. I'm interested to see if the rules depict this at all. 

I think this early iteration of the rules didn't have as much impact on firefight dynamics to be honest... the new set however should impact it greatly.  Stay tuned though, there is a fierce struggle for the Bridge and the Gully Intersection coming in future reports.  I am waiting for Ian to get caught up before continuing my side of the action.

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Posted (edited)

Things Start to Heat Up

The BMPs and BRDM come under fire from an RPG team at the farm. AT a BMP is hit the BRDM crew spots the perpetrator.

20190604082753-d3e14902.jpg

 

They swing around and launch a missile into the farm building to end the threat.

20190604082823-e698bb0c.jpg

 

The team in the gully at KT2 have an inkling that something wicked this way comes.

20190604082838-dc0fdc51.jpg

 

Meanwhile artillery continues to fall on my home objective.

20190604082848-ca3d06d6.jpg

 

In sort order infantry appear in the gully. My men openfire.

20190604082900-529bd03c.jpg

And throw a few grenades even after the enemy solider drops out of sight.

20190604082905-a91a6598.jpg

 

Near the bridge the RPG team back up the squads on the bridge spot a BMP backing up to get away.

20190604082910-db130167.jpg

 

As the fight in the gully at KT2 continues the BRDM spots a BTR near KT1.

20190604082915-b55cbe2f.jpg

 

Near the bridge one of the BRMDs spots a single enemy between the trees and opens up. He gets away.

20190604082920-a53cb922.jpg

 

Later another BRDM in the woods spots the BTR and they exchange fire. My BRDM is immobilized. The enemy BTR shows no signs of damage.

20190604082927-13746b9f.jpg

 

Edited by IanL

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