hummm patche 4, I need your opinion

[H1nd]

At this point I am quite baffled how this could get through the testing. This issue with troops charging towards enemies when evading is very obvious from simply just playing the game as you normally do. I have been trying out the revised road to montebourg campaign and aside from first mission I have seen this issue come up in all scenarios regularly during normal gameplay. It is just plain and simply broken. Not as badly as it may have been before but broken nevertheless. For H2H games it seems that the remedy is once again using the pause command (exploit?) to stop troops from fleeing. But the poor AI will get its infantry massacred in simple firefights. 

[Warts 'n' all]

I eventually got so fed up with the gap charging that I gave up, and went off to play some Ted Thunder instead. 

[Falaise]

the good news is that a priori the patch works for the other games
it makes me think that the problem is not heavy
it could be an inversion in the fallback command
I look forward to the new CM italy while waiting I play normandy v 4 that i like

[PIATpunk]

I have just observed 'banzai' behaviour (evading towards enemy fire) in CMBN 4.01 through gaps in high stone walls.... so it's not just high bocage.

Edited May 25, 2019 by PIATpunk

[Howler]

1 hour ago, PIATpunk said:

I have just observed 'banzai' behaviour (evading towards enemy fire) in CMBN 4.01 through gaps in high stone walls.... so it's not just high bocage.

It happens everywhere. Wait till you notice the 'yo-yo'  where units first break forward...only to break back...then break forward... back... KIA!

Sometimes a slight deviation occurs and you can almost swear they are attempting to run laps. Thankfully, the overwhelming firepower in the modern titles allow us to ignore it by jumping directly to the KIA stage.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 hours ago, PIATpunk said:

I have just observed 'banzai' behaviour (evading towards enemy fire) in CMBN 4.01 through gaps in high stone walls.... so it's not just high bocage.

@MarkEzra's tests strongly suggest that the issue is not related to the terrain tiles at its root:

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 10:00 PM, MarkEzra said:

Attached is a Bocage Panic Test Map.zip  Unzip and place in scenario game files.  It is playable as either side.  I suggest you first play as Allied Attacker on your normal game style (iron-basic...whatever).  I will be interested in what your results are.  Save files can be sent to me : markDOTezra3591ATgmailDOTcom

 

2019-Bocage Panic Test Map.zip 8.52 kB · 7 downloads

 

[H1nd]

6 hours ago, Falaise said:

the good news is that a priori the patch works for the other games
it makes me think that the problem is not heavy
it could be an inversion in the fallback command
I look forward to the new CM italy while waiting I play normandy v 4 that i like

I am actually quite at loss on which version to play at this point for least broken gameplay. Previous version made singleplayer pretty much easymode, all you had to do was send a few rounds at the enemy and they would run away to some hidey-hole and the MP was such a huge forced pause-panic control micromanagement hell that I am not looking forward going back to the 4.00 version. To remember how things were before that, one needs to start remembering stuff from over three years past.. and then there is the fact that If my memory serves, we had to pay for engine 4 upgrades for CMBN. At this point it's probably not unreasonable to wish for BFC to at least acknowledge that there is a problem.

[JoMac]

Upgrade 3.0 is the best to date...Hopefully the Upgrade 4.0 Patch will get a re-Patch in due time. 

[PIATpunk]

4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

@MarkEzra's tests strongly suggest that the issue is not related to the terrain tiles at its root:

 

  I have previously sent in a report and save game of observed poor evading decisions using Mark's supplied test scenario, so whatever the cause I hope it's found and fixed quickly - CMBN bocage is my favourite landscape to play in!   cheers

[Warts 'n' all]

I'd recommend v.3 if you want to play CMBN. Just keep in mind the door entry bug that came with the Market-Garden module if you play any MG battles or campaigns. I still can't believe that it got ported over to Final Biltzkrieg. Ho hum.

[Warts 'n' all]

12 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I eventually got so fed up with the gap charging that I gave up, and went off to play some Ted Thunder instead. 

Before anyone asks, Ted is Red's brother.

[General Liederkranz]

27 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I'd recommend v.3 if you want to play CMBN. Just keep in mind the door entry bug that came with the Market-Garden module if you play any MG battles or campaigns. I still can't believe that it got ported over to Final Biltzkrieg. Ho hum.

What is this bug?

[Kevin2k]

Don't want to go back to CMBN v3.xx really. In the v4.01 game the Quick Battle Automatic force selection for "Combat Force = Mix" is way better. In the v3 games this mix force was  usually either all infantry OR all armor, but in v4 it usually is both infantry AND armor.

[Zveroboy1]

V3 was pretty good really. Personally I don't think infantry being a tad more spaced out and peeking around corners is worth it. Maybe it is because I haven't fully mastered this feature but they rarely peek when I want them to and expose themselves when I'd rather they stay out of sight. And the spacing out is nice but it is a not a dramatic difference in practice.

[General Liederkranz]

For me the spacing is one of my favorite v4 features and the thing that makes me most frustrated when other parts of v4 aren’t working right. The conga line looked ridiculous to me and anecdotally, I think I see fewer mass casualties from a single MG burst now that they’re spaced out. Coupled with the morale effects of v4, it creates what seems like a more realistic situation where moving infantry take fewer casualties, but go to ground more easily. 

But I agree v3 is perfectly good and I will probably keep playing CMBN with it as I have been for the past two years, until the new bug is fixed. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by General Liederkranz

[Warts 'n' all]

9 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

What is this bug?

There was a problem that effected a couple of the Dutch-style buildings whereby troops would go through the side wall, rather than the front door. There were a few different threads about it at the time.

[Doug Williams]

On 5/17/2019 at 11:00 AM, Howler said:

Scenario: Pleasently Shaded Woodland (WEGO - Iron)

Playing the Allies, I noticed, for the first time, the AI defender evading towards my positions and away from the AXIS friendly map edge. Rattled/Nervous defenders are charging through hedgerow gaps exposing themselves to small arms fire and then running back. I'd seen to odd occurrence in other scenarios but never to such an extent. I had to stop play as it was becoming an undeserved turkey-shoot.

Yes, this is happening to me also. My troops are fleeing toward known enemy locations, actually leaving the cover of bocage and running toward the enemy through the hedgerow gaps, with predictable results.

[Warts 'n' all]

To paraphrase Dartford Mick and The Tax Dodgers "If you moan too much, you might just find you get more than you need".

[General Liederkranz]

I am playing CMFI right now and I've seen this weird evasion behavior several times. No bocage in sight, just hills. I'm not sure it's exactly the same problem, but it seems to be. It's usually Panicked teams that take small arms or MG fire and then evade toward the enemy. It may be that they're trying to find a spot out of LOS of the enemy shooting at them, and they unfortunately choose spots that don't make any sense in the overall scheme of the battle. I could understand that. But what's especially weird and frustrating is that once they reach the safe spot they're heading for (if they do), they then TURN AROUND and run back through the gauntlet of fire they just survived. Now they're heading in a more sensible direction, but why not go that way in the first place? This resembles the behavior I've seen discussed in this thread. I have two saved turns showing this that I can send to whomever is appropriate. 

[MarkEzra]

1 hour ago, General Liederkranz said:

I am playing CMFI right now and I've seen this weird evasion behavior several times. No bocage in sight, just hills. I'm not sure it's exactly the same problem, but it seems to be. It's usually Panicked teams that take small arms or MG fire and then evade toward the enemy. It may be that they're trying to find a spot out of LOS of the enemy shooting at them, and they unfortunately choose spots that don't make any sense in the overall scheme of the battle. I could understand that. But what's especially weird and frustrating is that once they reach the safe spot they're heading for (if they do), they then TURN AROUND and run back through the gauntlet of fire they just survived. Now they're heading in a more sensible direction, but why not go that way in the first place? This resembles the behavior I've seen discussed in this thread. I have two saved turns showing this that I can send to whomever is appropriate. 

Noted.... I will keep an eye out for it.  Don't think I need a save file.  Thanks for posting

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, General Liederkranz said:

But what's especially weird and frustrating is that once they reach the safe spot they're heading for (if they do), they then TURN AROUND and run back through the gauntlet of fire they just survived. Now they're heading in a more sensible direction, but why not go that way in the first place?

That almost sounds like a classic description of panic.....The air around them erupts with bullets, so they rush into the nearest cover that is in front of their eyes. 

Having survived the initial bedlam they then take stock of the situation and attempt to 'restore the line'.

I'm not convinced at all that's what's intended here, but there is a sort of sense to it. 

 

[General Liederkranz]

I will try to see it that way. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Me too TBH. 

[General Liederkranz]

34 minutes ago, MarkEzra said:

Noted.... I will keep an eye out for it.  Don't think I need a save file.  Thanks for posting

Thank you. I appreciate that you have been on top of this issue so quickly since the patch.

[highlandcharge]

19 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

I am playing CMFI right now and I've seen this weird evasion behavior several times. No bocage in sight, just hills. I'm not sure it's exactly the same problem, but it seems to be. It's usually Panicked teams that take small arms or MG fire and then evade toward the enemy. It may be that they're trying to find a spot out of LOS of the enemy shooting at them, and they unfortunately choose spots that don't make any sense in the overall scheme of the battle. I could understand that. But what's especially weird and frustrating is that once they reach the safe spot they're heading for (if they do), they then TURN AROUND and run back through the gauntlet of fire they just survived. Now they're heading in a more sensible direction, but why not go that way in the first place? This resembles the behavior I've seen discussed in this thread. I have two saved turns showing this that I can send to whomever is appropriate.

 I have seen this behavior once in CMRT, I had a halftrack firing at a house, some Russian infantry ran out and away from the halftrack, so the halftrack shifted fire to where they where and they ran back towards the house and halftrack..
 

IMHO this is not a bug but just panicky behavior, all the other times I have seen infantry retreat in game they have retreated away from fire and towards there side of the map....