hummm patche 4, I need your opinion

[highlandcharge]

I have seen this also, fresh install of CMBN v 4 then 4.01 patch installed, I had started a new campaign, the Scottish corridor one, my infantry fired on some German troops, they then ran out in front of the hedge they where hiding behind towards my troops and into an open field, where they were mowed down....

It feels like something is still not right with the 4.01 patch...

 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

So this behaviour does seem to be linked primarily to Tall Bocage, and the gaps in it?  I'm not seeing similar reports in the other games.

[Warts 'n' all]

If I see it in the lower hedgerows, I'll be sure to let people know.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

My own experience of the problem was exclusively limited to Tall Bocage (and fairly easily fixable with foresight and permanent pause commands).

Edited May 14, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Wicky]

However you can't apply that bodge to Lemming hedge oppo when playing solo.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Indeed.....However I must confess that I didn't witness that particular behaviour, in my experience when German troops broke they stayed the right side of the hedges. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Sgt.Squarehead]

They seem to be doing it at the drop of a hat now:

This pair were told to bug out when the shooting started, one of them pratted around by the gap in the hedge for half the turn and got himself clipped, the other one has, apparently quite coolly & calmly decided that, under the circumstances, suicide is the only honourable option left to him. 

I think it might be broke! 

[Zveroboy1]

Has anyone seen this behaviour elsewhere than in CMBN? I have been playing SF2 quite a bit and never noticed anything of the sort. It might have something to do with hedgerows perhaps.

Maybe someone could modify the map in the editor and replace the hedgerow by say a low wall and replay the battle. It'd be interesting to see if the bug still occurs.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Zveroboy1

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That matches my own thoughts & experiences.....I've recently (since patching) played/experimented with CM:FI & CM:BS with no similar experiences. 

[Howler]

They rarely rush towards the enemy in SF2 so, it can be excused as a war story. When a unit takes 'flight' in this title, the waypoint the TacAI generates can still be a killer particularly in close terrain. The 60-80m the unit travels during playback can be painful to watch. It's been observed that the pathfinding tends to ignore intervening cover even if it means running the  whole (60-80m) length of the street in the open (for example). It can be frustrating when we, the player, can see a simple relocation to nearby cover which is away from incoming fire and would result in a lot fewer casualties. The potential for losses lessens the later this 'flight' occurs during playback. If it happens late enough, the player can intervene in the next order phase. I'm not sure if this behavior is intended or not. I'm not aware of any follow-up or formal determination one way or the other...

Interestingly enough, I've not seen it in CMBS but that could the relative lethality of both sides. It's very much a 'he who spots first - wins' type of experience...

It seems to be almost common in CMBN for the TacAI generated waypoint to be placed towards incoming fire and away from the map designated friendly edge. Again, this could be skewed by the fact that most of my play has involved a lot of hedges/bocage.

[Warts 'n' all]

I can now verify that it happens with low hedgerows too. It's just cost me eight casualties. I never had trouble like this at Naseby. Although I seem to Ruprecht von Pfalz's troops were fatally attracted to Baggage Trains leaving me free to slaughter Charlie Stewart's Infantry.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That doesn't bode well. 

[MarkEzra]

39 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That doesn't bode well. 

On the contrary:  It helps point the beta tester in the right direction.

What we think we know is

1.  Not across the game platform but localized to CMBN

2.  Activity often happens around Bocage.

3. Happens when the game is patched to 4.01

Beta testers continue to look at this.  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, MarkEzra said:

Beta testers continue to look at this.

I have every confidence. 

Is it worth mentioning that Low Bocage is in some of the other games too, it's in CM:FI for sure. 

I'm just hoping the problem is not more widespread.....Hence my comment above. 

[snarre]

not seen this problem on RT and Low Bocage is there too. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Now that does bode well. 

[MarkEzra]

Attached is a Bocage Panic Test Map.zip  Unzip and place in scenario game files.  It is playable as either side.  I suggest you first play as Allied Attacker on your normal game style (iron-basic...whatever).  I will be interested in what your results are.  Save files can be sent to me : markDOTezra3591ATgmailDOTcom

 

2019-Bocage Panic Test Map.zip

[Sgt.Squarehead]

What files are you particularly after, Mark.....Just those with any 'unusual events'? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Sgt.Squarehead]

First play through:

Everything was exactly as one might hope for, it was as if the problems described above just did not exist.....Units remained pinned firmly in place even while being shot to pieces, when they did eventually break their choice of direction was entirely sensible. 

What did you do? 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[rocketman]

1 hour ago, snarre said:

not seen this problem on RT and Low Bocage is there too. 

I think, a bit confusing, is that it is called Low Bocage, but isn't as you can cross through it with infantry. Same thing in FB.

[domfluff]

Just ran through that test scenario five times. Each time I Fast moved a squad up to the bocage loophole, and took the fire.

Each time the US squads reacted in the same way - dying in place, or sometimes withdrawing from the hedgeline. Either way, acceptable behaviour, since they never run through the hedge.

I still suspect that in Roadblock map that due to map curvature and obstacles like the low wall, there's a position out-of-LOS just in front of the hedge, which is close or closer than the alternatives.

[The Steppenwulf]

3 hours ago, MarkEzra said:

3. Happens when the game is patched to 4.01

No I observed the AI behaviour in 4.0 - a long long time ago and not played BN for two years as a result. You are all playing catch up 

 

[MarkEzra]

22 minutes ago, domfluff said:

I still suspect that in Roadblock map that due to map curvature and obstacles like the low wall, there's a position out-of-LOS just in front of the hedge, which is close or closer than the alternatives.

OK   than we may make an assumption moving on that Bocage terrain is not, of itself, buggy.  I have not looked at the Roadblock map but will do so.  

 

15 minutes ago, The Steppenwulf said:

No I observed the AI behaviour in 4.0 - a long long time ago and not played BN for two years as a result. You are all playing catch up 

 

Thank You.  I will keep your experience in mind.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I sense that a masterclass in map-debugging may be underway. 

[domfluff]

The most reliable way I have to replicate this behaviour:

Precisely this order:

At precisely this spot - one action spot to the *left* of the bocage gap. This does not exhibit the same behaviour when the centre of the unit is on the bocage gap.

When they take fire, they will reliably run forwards, towards this specific spot:

Zooming in to their only contact:

 

This spot has LOS with the Target tool to that MG team. It doesn't have LOS to the action spot the LMG is on, since the low wall is in the way. I still think that's the problem. It's trying to find the nearest solution out of LOS, and it chooses this one.

Sending units one space to the left of the gaps of the Bocage Panic Test Map:

These die in place (right here) or withdraw and die (here, left).