hummm patche 4, I need your opinion

[Howler]

The selected team was already in position the previous turn and was expected to provide covering fire (no orders pending). Incoming fire from the two contacts in the house caused the three teams that had been sent forward to break and run back. This (other) team though will break forward and towards incoming fire... Deville

[Warts 'n' all]

Wasn't it Dartford Mick and the Tax Dodgers who said "You can't always get what you want, and if you moan too much, you might just, get something you don't really need?" In other words, was Engine 3 so bad that we needed engine 4? 

[Howler]

21 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

In other words, was Engine 3 so bad that we needed engine 4?

I'm only trying to help identify the cause. It may have been yourself who stated that this might be related to a move and or facing command being issued. I have the save game for this also which will show the team in question not being ordered at all.

Hopefully my posts on this subject are viewed as being helpful...

[Warts 'n' all]

58 minutes ago, Howler said:

I'm only trying to help identify the cause. It may have been yourself who stated that this might be related to a move and or facing command being issued. I have the save game for this also which will show the team in question not being ordered at all.

Hopefully my posts on this subject are viewed as being helpful...

They are indeed. Hopefully we all learn from, and help each other. I'm just beginning to think that engine 4 was a step too far. From my own experience the "Combine Squad" command was useful. But I don't think any of the other features were essential, or that they added to the game. And we have had to wait two years for a patch, only for it to create a new problem, hitherto unseen. 

[domfluff]

Whereas I do think that corner peeking, the hull down command and the improved spacing are all vital additions. There are some minor things as well, but I really wouldnt want to lose those.

The infantry behaviour is usually pretty great. The above is the exception, in my experience, and not the rule.

[MarkEzra]

4 hours ago, Howler said:

Keep working on maps. Smucks like me can spend time isolating TacAI outliers. Map makers should make maps. Alright Princess!

Well I will be looking at the maps as well.  Terrain impacts the AI.  Elevation tiles do, too.  They can't be overlooked when evaluating a poor AI reaction when under fire.  An AI controlled unit seeks near-by cover and concealment. It might be tall grass or a slight terrain depression.  At the moment of reaction the AI won't always move away from fire, but under it. This is not to say that all is well and eat your broccoli... Beta testers will be looking at it all from more than just one angle. We are listening.  We will be evaluating and we'll let you know.

Thank you for posting.  It's how things get fixed.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, Howler said:

Hopefully my posts on this subject are viewed as being helpful...

They are, but there's no need to be sarky with people.....We're all on the same side here, remember? 

48 minutes ago, MarkEzra said:

Thank you for posting.  It's how things get fixed.

This. 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Warts 'n' all]

6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

.We're all on the same side here, remember? 

Unless you happen to be Charlie Stewart.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

You realise I'm from Worcester? 

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You realise I'm from Worcester? 

Yeah, but you hide in a ganja bush, not an oak tree.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Hide?   

Nah! 

[Howler]

14 hours ago, MarkEzra said:

Well I will be looking at the maps as well.  Terrain impacts the AI.  Elevation tiles do, too.  They can't be overlooked when evaluating a poor AI reaction when under fire.  An AI controlled unit seeks near-by cover and concealment. It might be tall grass or a slight terrain depression.  At the moment of reaction the AI won't always move away from fire, but under it. This is not to say that all is well and eat your broccoli... Beta testers will be looking at it all from more than just one angle. We are listening.  We will be evaluating and we'll let you know.

FWIW, hitting the 'Evade' button (to the right of the pause and cancel buttons) will sometimes place the path forward and away from the friendly side of the map. It's rare but it has happened once in my tiny sample size (10 runs). I don't know how much code, if any, is shared between the routines for 'Evade' and the placement of the 'Withdraw' (?) waypoint when a unit breaks and runs...

My test cases show the Evade placed back both away from known contacts and towards the friendly side of the map while that same unit will decamp forward and towards enemy positions when the turn is generated. I'm hitting the evade only to verify. It's cancelled/removed by the time the RED button is clicked for the turn to generate.

[MikeyD]

City fighting and bocage fighting often lead troops into hazardous and confusing close proximity fights. Sometime the instinct of 'anywhere but here' causes them to run around the wrong building corner or in the direction of the wrong cover. Think of all of those bad WWII movies where startled German soldiers run out only to be mowed down before they take three steps. Casualties occur when stupid mistakes occur. That's why grizzled combat vets would say 'Never make friends with the new guy'. Because green troops tended to make stupid fatal mistakes.

[MarkEzra]

3 hours ago, Howler said:

FWIW, hitting the 'Evade' button (to the right of the pause and cancel buttons) will sometimes place the path forward and away from the friendly side of the map. It's rare but it has happened once in my tiny sample size (10 runs). I don't know how much code, if any, is shared between the routines for 'Evade' and the placement of the 'Withdraw' (?) waypoint when a unit breaks and runs...

My test cases show the Evade placed back both away from known contacts and towards the friendly side of the map while that same unit will decamp forward and towards enemy positions when the turn is generated. I'm hitting the evade only to verify. It's cancelled/removed by the time the RED button is clicked for the turn to generate.

interesting point re something I no absolutely NOTHING about ...Real time play.  I test and play in WEGO.  For testing it allows me to save and demonstrate a problem. In play I love to rewind and review all that has transpired in a single minute of combat. Fortunately other testers will be able to speak on  RT button actions.  I can say this: when the player gives an order the AI does it's best to follow them.  Morale, unit status, HQ contact and all the other aspects influence a units ability to follow those orders.  When panic sets in the player has no further control of the unit. The results of the AI actions should have no baring on game play styles.  Weather WEGO or RT the AI action will be the same.  What we need to figure out is of often a less than realistic action and under what circumstances do they occur.

For the record:  I have played/tested many hours of WEGO 4.01 QB Battles using the 2019 Bocage maps.  I really cannot say that I had any unreasonable, odd, or WTF moments when my troops were in panic mode.  For example:  Just last night, with the 2019  Moselle Village QB Map, I sent my US FO veteran +2 officer into lite woods tile via hunt/hide.  They were spotted and fired on by 2 right and left forward enemy positions right after setting up an arty strike.  They went from pinned to panic and that's when the fun began.  Completely of my control they broke cover, and through hail of rifle and machine gun fire, dodged and weaved their way to a heavy woods tile and went to ground.  And they were still able to maintain visual contact with the target!  A few minutes later 81 mm rounds rained retribution  upon their adversaries.  But it's early in the game, and I play a reckless hand at times, so more will be revealed.   

[Howler]

5 minutes ago, MarkEzra said:

They were spotted and fired on by 2 right and left forward enemy positions right after setting up an arty strike.  They went from pinned to panic and that's when the fun began.  Completely of my control they broke cover, and through hail of rifle and machine gun fire, dodged and weaved their way to a heavy woods tile and went to ground. 

Despite my posts in this thread; there are many cool things happening in game. I'm playing scenarios I haven't seen since the original launch and it's been invoking good memories.

I simply don't recall so many rushes towards enemy positions. I don't know what to make of it. In your case, did they break forward and towards the enemy edge of the map?

I don't mind *stuff* happening when a unit breaks. I'm taken aback by seeing so many instances of them being rushes forward. Whatever survives usually rush right back towards friendly lines once the dust settles. It's that initial creation of the waypoint which will guide them while breaking that has me wondering...

[MarkEzra]

1 hour ago, Howler said:

Despite my posts in this thread; there are many cool things happening in game. I'm playing scenarios I haven't seen since the original launch and it's been invoking good memories.

I simply don't recall so many rushes towards enemy positions. I don't know what to make of it. In your case, did they break forward and towards the enemy edge of the map?

I don't mind *stuff* happening when a unit breaks. I'm taken aback by seeing so many instances of them being rushes forward. Whatever survives usually rush right back towards friendly lines once the dust settles. It's that initial creation of the waypoint which will guide them while breaking that has me wondering...

I cannot speak for the AI...BUT...If a way point is set the unit will first attempt to follow that order.  But when panic takes over it becomes a dice roll.

I get what you are saying when your sense of the game is panic = rushing into the hands of the enemy. So I am looking at this carefully as I play.  I just got an entire veteran sqd shattered by arty while attempting a flanking move through heavy forest.  They ran to the rear and then to the direction of the original order (a right flank move which was more away than not)...only to be decimated by another arty volley.  the vicissitudes of combat, certainly, but reasonable, yes?  All my other forward attacks toward the town are currently going well (good overwatch and supporting fires)  Let's see what happens after my own arty is completed and I assault the place with two fresh sqds

[Wicky]

Don't necessarily seem to be always in Panic to do seeming daft things - In the example  I saw  (save file back on Page 2) it was an enemey German HQ unit that dashed out forward into the open bocage field which was indicated to be 'Nervous' - just moments after a colleague got shot) and as the turn ended. 

[Warts 'n' all]

I managed a Tactical Victory at "Le Grand Hameau" with 11 casualties. But having to micro manage my troops when they charge through gaps in the hedgerow towards the enemy for no reason is getting tiresome. I'm not sure I'll carry on with the campaign for much longer. It is a great shame because my initial thoughts about the patch were very positive.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I guess permanent pauses (on units adjacent to bocage openings) may be a workaround here? 

[MarkEzra]

4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I managed a Tactical Victory at "Le Grand Hameau" with 11 casualties. But having to micro manage my troops when they charge through gaps in the hedgerow towards the enemy for no reason is getting tiresome. I'm not sure I'll carry on with the campaign for much longer. It is a great shame because my initial thoughts about the patch were very positive.

Are you playing RT or WEGO? 

[Ithikial_AU]

Could the friendly edge for the scenario/map in question be set up the wrong way in the campaign? TacAI when controlling broken troops will naturally try to head in that direction thinking it's towards friendly lines?

[Warts 'n' all]

3 hours ago, MarkEzra said:

Are you playing RT or WEGO? 

I play WEGO, Mark.

[Warts 'n' all]

1 hour ago, Ithikial_AU said:

Could the friendly edge for the scenario/map in question be set up the wrong way in the campaign? TacAI when controlling broken troops will naturally try to head in that direction thinking it's towards friendly lines?

The troops aren't "Broken" in my case. The ones who are charging through the gaps are doing it irrespective of their morale state. And it seems to be happening only when they lose sight of enemy units.  

[Howler]

5 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

The troops aren't "Broken" in my case. The ones who are charging through the gaps are doing it irrespective of their morale state. And it seems to be happening only when they lose sight of enemy units.  

Yup, when a unit decides it needs to relocate, it's more common to have this (decamp/evade/withdraw) waypoint placed forward (away from the scenario designated friendly map edge) without consideration of cover (they will bypass intervening walls/ditches/buildings/etc.) to end movement in a more exposed position. Your screen shot captures this nicely. Some have postulated that variances in elevation may be an important factor.

In any event, having reached this waypoint and should it need to decamp again - it has invariably done so in  a more sensible manner. This being farther back from it's original position, towards the scenario designated friendly map edge  and away from last known enemy contacts.

What I've been doing is reloading the save, selecting the unit that will soon decamp 'badly' , and hitting the Evade to inspect the waypoint it generates. This waypoint is not the same as what will later be generated when the unit does take flight. This waypoint will rarely generate a location forward and towards know enemy positions (this is a good thing). I then Cancel the Evade and generate the turn. If the unit hasn't decamped, I keep generating turns until it does. Sometimes as many as 4 turns have been needed in order to see them decamp at which point they will follow the exact same 'flight' path. As long has they remain stationary - it seems this waypoint is always placed in the same location regardless of variances of known contacts or time (WEGO turn).

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That's some good info.....You are doing much better than me (spent two days building a map and the bloody thing crashed)!