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Falaise

hummm patche 4, I need your opinion

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They're using the Roadblock training scenario, since that was what was mentioned. I do wonder if it's related to the gap in the hedge screwing with the LOS calculations.

Will redo this a few spots to the left

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 7:12 PM, Falaise said:

 

190509065530704242.jpg

it's not just there where the problem appears :
on the picture if on top of,  Germans right with the hands lifted, flew towards the Americans, once the hedge crossed, taken under fire they surrendered.
A time after, the panzersheck team rushes to the Americans (see the post above)
on the other hand, the Germans in the center had a logical behavior and retreated to the next hedge

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Running a few tests with them slightly to the left results in them dying in place under HMG and HE fire.

Move order:
ygGZaU9.jpg

Incoming HE
sDOe6u9.jpg

Aftermath/recovery:
X9aPG5l.jpg

 

So, I'm still sure this is a LOS thing. We know the bocage holes aren't treated quite 1:1 anyway.

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So, the logic here (which may be wrong) is that if they're withdrawing, they'll try to withdraw to a nearby (possibly "the nearest" space) that's outside of LOS from the direction of known incoming fire.

We know how LOS calculations work in CM - there's a precalculated grid overlay at five height intervals, which makes calculation between two of those points fast. This is why the "Target" tool is as fast as it is - the LOS between any two action spots can be calculated by it's a lookup table. This is distinct from the actual firing calculations of the individual guys. That's drawn from the actual figure, but there's far fewer of those calculations to derive per turn, so you can afford for that to be more expensive.

What I'm suggesting, and may not be correct, is that in this kind of scenario the map overlay treats the hole in the bocage as larger than it's visually represented. It's perhaps even a hole that covers the entire action spot.

In that scenario, the squad is saying "I'm receiving excessive fire, and I'm in the open, I need to run somewhere that I can't be seen".

The suggestion here is that there's a spot just in front of this hedge where there's no LOS at the crawling height to the action spot that the HMG is firing from, since that's behind a low wall. 

The combination of considering themselves as more exposed than you think they are, and having a nearby "safe" spot, that makes them run through a really dangerous one, is making them make a bad decision.

With this theory, the reason why it doesn't happen to the left is that they're already in a covered position - indeed, crawling takes them out of sight, since the hedges have that low level rise to them.

Basically, stay away from hedge gaps, but that's always been good advice in CMBN.

 

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I'm sorry I can't be of any more help. But, having now run seven tests my troops always maintain their position at the gap, whatever Jerry throws at them. Also, during my tests I have never seen the strange behaviour that the German troops were exhibiting in an earlier post. This would lead me to conclude that the problem is not being generated by the patch per se. But, rather be a conflict between files which may have arisen during downloading. I'm not enough of an expert to be able to explain why things happen differently for different players

Just as an example, I encountered problems with units missing from the map when playing "Amiens Tonight" on Engine 3, which it's designer did not encounter himself. And he was unable to help me resolve it. Having tried it again with the new Engine 4 Patch it now works properly. But, I've no idea why.

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I've been saving during the order phase and replaying (regenerating the playback) the turn to record variances.  Without fail, the unit will always choose to rush into the open towards the enemy side when they need to decamp. Sometimes they cower remaining in place longer thus breaking later in the turn allowing the waypoint to be redirected on the subsequent order phase.

I haven't played in an town setting yet but suspect I'll see similar frustrating waypoint placement as has been reported in SF2.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, domfluff said:

I wonder if I didn't overwrite the previous normandy v400.brz somehow?

I reinstalled using the all-in-one and applied the patch (and moving the Z folder over) and will be starting from this configuration today.

The one thing that has been consistent is that the patch has made battle creation and save game loads a lot slower (almost twice the time).

Edited by Howler

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I deleted cmbn totally and I reinstalled it and put back the patch and again the problem appeared
I am one of those who can not update the graphics card since December 2017 or otherwise the game crash.
although this is no direct link this may imply a particular configuration of the computer.
I do not know what thought

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, IanL said:

The BRZ files do not contain behavior as far as I know. Just resources. The tac AI is in the .exe @Howler can you share that saved file? 

Yes, check your messages...

58 minutes ago, Falaise said:

I deleted cmbn totally and I reinstalled it and put back the patch and again the problem appeared

It's not only you. Save the game during the commands phase and when you notice the problem - reload and regenerate the playback. The only thing that changes for me is how late the unit in question is spotted/fired at. When they decamp - the waypoint is always placed in the same spot towards the enemy firing position. Some generated playbacks  has the unit not being spotted at all and thus safe. But, when they are shot at - they invariably break to the same spot causing from no casualties to being wiped out. The withdraw waypoint is always the same spot.

I don't know what to make of it either.

EDIT: I discovered that playing through turns (advancing the turn) when they didn't receive any fire (and not issuing commands) will show that the waypoint lands in the exact same spot when they do break (a couple generated turns later).

EDIT: Went up to 4 turns later before being spotted/fired at. Same waypoint location. Everytime, rather than moving 1 AS back and out of LOS - they run forward out in the open. If they survive - they then run back towards my lines and relative safety.

Edited by Howler

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I opened this thread asking you for your opinion and I thank you all.
I ended up making my opinion.
In view of the problem engendered and it is not minor:
on my computer the patch makes cmbn unplayable.
I stay in V4.00

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This happened the 10th time regenerating the turn which I find pretty nifty... thought I'd share it.

kZKo3Gg.jpg

As always, they start an AS to the left of the gap and always run to where you see them here. If they survive - they run back through the gap and stop slightly behind their original  position. I've played this sequence back more than a dozen times and this is the only time I've seen them surrender. I think that's really cool.

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Posted (edited)

Finally I got my Limey arse bitten too. As I stated to the Honorable Gentlemen of the House on a previous occasion, during all of my "Roadblock" tests I allowed my troops to pick their own targets, and had no problems at all.

Over the last few days I've also gone back to the The Road to Montebourg Campaign, I've only previously played it using engine 2. And having never played it using engine 3 I thought I'd give it a whirl now. First two missions no problems at all. But, during the third "Le Grand Hameau", I have had units that have had "Face" or "Target" commands head off through the nearest gap and into danger. I'm not sure if it happens the moment they lose sight of an enemy or not, I'll have to look more closely at the enemy units the next time it occurs.

Watch this space.

Edited by Warts 'n' all

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Posted (edited)

It doesn't seem to be consistent either within games or even scenarios.....Issues with routing in CM:SF2 are mentioned above, I play a lot of CM:SF2 and I just haven't seen it.  However I point to point my units fastidiously, especially in urban environments, so by virtue of that, I may not be seeing an issue that is actually quite real.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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2 hours ago, Falaise said:

I opened this thread asking you for your opinion and I thank you all.
I ended up making my opinion.
In view of the problem engendered and it is not minor:
on my computer the patch makes cmbn unplayable.
I stay in V4.00

This thread is only a week old.  That is nowhere near enough time to collect and examine data particularly for TAC AI issues.  You should certainly do whatever feels right for you playing the game, but I would certainly not make any conclusions on cause and effect here.  Making the game "unplayable' seems a bit of an overstatement yet that is a subjective evaluation.  If you feel it is unplayable, then it is.  What I would suggest is rather than delete completely is to do an additional install so you can continue to participate in testing.  As you seem to be able to reliably duplicate the issue, your assistance in validating items could be really helpful.

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56 minutes ago, sburke said:

What I would suggest is rather than delete completely is to do an additional install so you can continue to participate in testing.  As you seem to be able to reliably duplicate the issue, your assistance in validating items could be really helpful.

That's a very good idea.....With two installs you could do back to back tests too.  B)

I'm up to my neck in maps (which don't much care about patch level) or I'd do it myself as I am genuinely curious to know what's up. 

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4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I'm up to my neck in maps (which don't much care about patch level) or I'd do it myself as I am genuinely curious to know what's up. 

Keep working on maps. Smucks like me can spend time isolating TacAI outliers. Map makers should make maps. Alright Princess! 😀

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my choice is not definitive
I love to play this games and I take a lot of fun
all the evils that have affected v4, I have never seen them or so discreetly that they do not embarrass me, even finding that it put a random that resembles the vagaries of life (I only play cnbn v4 )
but with the patch the strange behavior is reproduced with the regularity of a metronome that really makes the game unplayable.

it is possible to have both versions V4.00 and V4.01 at the same time?

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2 minutes ago, Falaise said:

it is possible to have both versions V4.00 and V4.01 at the same time?

yes.  I routinely have different versions installed.  ;) 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Howler said:

Smucks like me can spend time isolating TacAI outliers.

Nah.....The testing team will be the guys who do that.  ;)

You'll just play your face about it until they do.  :rolleyes:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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