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JulianJ

Russian Artillery - long time to arrive

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Have been out of touch for a while and just got back and found this thread very useful and interesting.  Thanks guys.  Keep it up!

Question:  Does the above imply that designers should ensure that the Red forces have enuff artillery so it can emulate the pre-planned bombardment tactics described? 

It often feels that the Red forces in CM2 scenarios have inadequate artillery to conduct such fires in sufficient mass - and that is when we players start to try and use Red artillery as if we were playing with western Blue forces.

 

To be honest I think it is possible for the game makers to take the right kinds of engagements for their game.


For example while Soviet/Russian set up would concentrate masses of fires against prepared enemy defense, or his supporting assets or in the other way, there would be plenty of fluid engagements outside of the main bodies of forces, on the flanks of said forces (flanking detachments, economy of force groupings etc), in the deep forward/rear (forward detachments operating in the enemy rear) as part of a non linear battle.

For many of those smaller forces operating outside of the main bodies there would be very little artillery support (relatively speaking) and it would be offered either by organic or attached artillery in a very sensible quantity, which would have their commanders (in case of Russian forces) co-located with the combined arms manuever force that they are supporting in their dedicated vehicles, with the direct data and voice link to the artillery forces that they run.
While there is practice of pooling artillery units (after all the subordinate manuever formations got the organic/attached support they deem to need) into regimental (RAG), divisional (DAG), army (AAG) groups did/does exist, it would be used in support of the efforts of the parent formation, on the points of decision and in support of key elements of said parent formation and thus could not be expected to back every battalion tactical group or any other tactical force for that matter. Doing so (backing up every BTG with multiple battalions of artillery) would only disperse the assets and make achieving concentration and mass harder and in general seems bizzare (especially considering how there are not enough artillery units to do this anyway).

If there is an interest to simulate the larger artillery concentrations on the points of decision, in support of key forces (ie certain forward detachments) done by RAG/BAG/DAG/AAG (and for the smaller organic types of artillery support for that matter) this could be done by introducing the artillery subunit/unit/formation commander's vehicle (or set of vehicles) or in case of linked but separate efforts - the recon assets that would be used in this role.
In the case of the commander of a joint artillery forces (RAG/BAG/DAG/AAG) present this would mean very fast calls for fires in direct support of the combined arms unit he is co-located with, as this commander has the broad knowledge and experience in applying the fires, has direct links to his assets and has good grasp on how his assets work.

Edited by ikalugin

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Posted (edited)

All a bit tricky to do without MRLs.  :unsure:

Cool to see the old BM-27 Uragan on the Zil-135 still in use.....Possibly the ugliest (& thus coolest) MRL of them all:

1200px-9K57_Uragan_2.jpg

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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To be honest I think that MRLs would be used mostly to cover the flanks of advancing friendly forces and slow down the enemy reinforcements with remotely deployed minefields, to cover the spaces between units by manuevering fire, to attack key points (artillery, air defence, command posts, reserves, logistics nodes) in the depth of the enemy.

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Posted (edited)

I understand that the BM-30 has long range precision munitions for use against armour? 

Now that's a toy we really need, given the game's current puny red PGMs.  :rolleyes:

PS - Artillery deliverable minefields would be great.....I hoped you could place them as reinforcements so you could kind of model this, but no such luck.  :unsure:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I understand that the BM-30 has long range precision munitions for use against armour? 

Now that's a toy we really need, given the game's current puny red PGMs.  :rolleyes:

PS - Artillery deliverable minefields would be great.....I hoped you could place them as reinforcements so you could kind of model this, but no such luck.  :unsure:

There is an option to use smart submunitions, yes, for example:
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/smerch/9m55k1.htm

It is in service and was exported abroad.

Edited by ikalugin

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16 hours ago, ikalugin said:

For many of those smaller forces operating outside of the main bodies there would be very little artillery support (relatively speaking)...

Makes sense.  However, in these instances, since there is "very little artillery support (relatively speaking)" available, then presumably the Red forces would have to adopt different tactics than the one discussed in this thread which describes the mass use of arty.   

What would Red forces tactics be when there is little artillery available?  Would that be similar to Western tactics or...?  Am interested in what are optimal Red tactics in CM2 since very few (if any) CM2 scenarios in which one plays Red feature mass artillery.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Erwin said:

Makes sense.  However, in these instances, since there is "very little artillery support (relatively speaking)" available, then presumably the Red forces would have to adopt different tactics than the one discussed in this thread which describes the mass use of arty.   

What would Red forces tactics be when there is little artillery available?  Would that be similar to Western tactics or...?  Am interested in what are optimal Red tactics in CM2 since very few (if any) CM2 scenarios in which one plays Red feature mass artillery.  

Say you are a battalion commander with an artillery battery in support acting as a part of the greater regimental effort. You would have that battery commander with you, he would be organising the fires as a part of your broader intent and mission and would be in direct contact with the commander of the artillery battalion that he is subordinated to that is supporting the regiment, in case he needs more fires than his own assets could provide.

Edited by ikalugin

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You gave a good description of standard Russian/Red tactics when one is in the "main effort" and there is mass artillery in support.  Am asking if the tactics change when one is "operating outside the main body" and has much less, if any, arty available (as is the case with most, perhaps all, CM2 scenarios).

In such a situation it would seem that the "bulldozer" Red tactics would not work without mass artillery.  So, are there different Red tactics when one is not the main effort and so one has little or no arty support?  Would that be similar to the tactics used by western forces?  

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I would classify a battery supporting a BTG as an example of that smaller scale artillery support.

Maybe you have an example to better illustrate your question?

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Remember, within a regiment’s artillery battalion you have 4 command elements (battalion commander and 3 battery commanders), one of them would be deployed with the main body or some other key element (the battalion commander) while the battery commanders would be deployed with other less significant maneuver elements, the tubes themselves could be redistributed within the battalion to form a RAG commanded by the battalion commander, to support various maneuver elements with various degrees of firepower.

If no battery commander is available then I guess you are limited to using artillery recon (which feeds targets to the artillery commanders) or just your organic company/battalion mortars (some of which could be pooled into RAG)

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