European Union Army

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, sburke said:

Eventually we humans are gonna have to figure out how to stop behaving like a bunch of idiots and learn how to manage to get along.

Please keep me informed of any progress on that front. 

[LukeFF]

On 4/3/2019 at 5:57 PM, Michael Emrys said:

We may find out before too very much longer.

Michael

No, you won't. 

[Michael Emrys]

43 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

No, you won't. 

Probably not—at least not right away—but I do keep hearing reports of a movement by a not inconsiderable number of folk who would like to see that happen.

Michael

[sburke]

6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Please keep me informed of any progress on that front. 

There has been progress, but because it doesn't seem to meet your standard you usually spend your time banging away at it.   

[Badger73]

On 4/6/2019 at 12:43 PM, Aragorn2002 said:

<snipped>

Not ideal, but as I mentioned it works for example with Dutch and German units in one Korps. Same would be possible for example for Finnish and Swedish units, or French and Belgian units. Using the same equipment would also help a lot. And yes, preferably made in Europe.

Who would establish the common doctrine for a non-NATO EU army force?  How would such forces coordinate operations above Corps level and/or insure common understanding of tactical doctrine by different national small units within a corps?

[AttorneyAtWar]

6 minutes ago, Badger73 said:

Who would establish the common doctrine for a non-NATO EU army force?  How would such forces coordinate operations above Corps level and/or insure common understanding of tactical doctrine by different national small units within a corps?

By training like every other army in the world?

[Badger73]

5 hours ago, Raptorx7 said:

By training like every other army in the world?

No, by training to a common standard so that all units integrate smoothly on the battlefield.  The question doesn't ask "what".  It asks "who" establishes a non-NATO EU army force training in a world where each separate country establishes its own national doctrine especially after Brexit.  France, Belgium, Germany, Norway, Denmark?  I'm asking what's the mechanism whereby a EU army agrees upon defined threat assessments and establishes the training doctrine to fight such wars.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I foresee linguistic difficulties. 

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I foresee linguistic difficulties. 

 

 

 

 

[Combatintman]

16 hours ago, Badger73 said:

No, by training to a common standard so that all units integrate smoothly on the battlefield.  The question doesn't ask "what".  It asks "who" establishes a non-NATO EU army force training in a world where each separate country establishes its own national doctrine especially after Brexit.  France, Belgium, Germany, Norway, Denmark?  I'm asking what's the mechanism whereby a EU army agrees upon defined threat assessments and establishes the training doctrine to fight such wars.

The answer to the bold bit is likely to be whatever mechanism the EU comes up with for doing so. As to the threat piece, I'm not sure it will come into play until someone sits down and decides what it is supposed to do. EU military missions exist already of course and it might be worth rummaging around those to get a feel for how they work.

[Ivanov]

One of the current projects of European Defence Agency, is the focus on the modernisation of the Leopard 2A4 fleet used by the European countries. The participants are: Austria ( 114 tanks ), Finland ( 139 tanks ), Grece ( 183 tanks ), Poland ( 142 tanks, already being modernised ), Spain ( 108 tanks in the storage ).

https://www.eda.europa.eu/info-hub/press-centre/latest-news/2019/04/02/wanted-industry-solutions-for-optimisation-of-mbt-capabilities
 

[Ivanov]

To answer those who question the purpose of "EU army". It is needed, because there are some tasks, that the US led NATO is reluctant to undertake. It's supposed to be complementary to NATO, not to replace it. Basically NATO is now back to it's roots, namely defending the alliance against the conventional threats. But currently Europe has also other types of problems. The EU marine forces conduct operations on the Mediterranean to manage the refugee crisis. EU troops are also present in Africa because that's where the refugees are coming from. 

Polish troops during the EUFOR mission in Chad 2008-2009. At the same time Poland had a contingent in Afghanistan as a part of NATO mission there. 

[Badger73]

@Ivanov  - Thank you.  I didn't realize there was an already existent European Defense Agency.  It seems that this is the group which would formulate and disseminate the training priorities and tactical doctrines for EU army units.  Correct?

[Ivanov]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:40 AM, Badger73 said:

@Ivanov  - Thank you.  I didn't realize there was an already existent European Defense Agency.  It seems that this is the group which would formulate and disseminate the training priorities and tactical doctrines for EU army units.  Correct?

EDA was established in 2004. It focuses on the coordination and improvement of the military capabilities and industrial cooperation of the EU members, rather than the tactics and military doctrine.

https://www.eda.europa.eu/Aboutus/Missionandfunctions

[DerKommissar]

or

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 1:53 AM, Ivanov said:

It focuses on the coordination and improvement of the military capabilities and industrial cooperation of the EU members, rather than the tactics and military doctrine.

Yup, it's a committee. 

[Ivanov]

Is spamming with memes acceptable now on this forum?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Europe, as united as ever:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/europe-divided-over-how-to-respond-to-haftar-assault-on-tripoli-libya

 

 

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Europe, as united as ever:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/europe-divided-over-how-to-respond-to-haftar-assault-on-tripoli-libya

 

 

Yeah that is totally different than how the US Congress behaves......

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Do Congress still get a say.....I thought that went out with Executive Actions? 

[Badger73]

Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the U.S. Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war.
[The Congress shall have Power...] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

The President, meanwhile, derives the power to direct the military after a Congressional declaration of war from Article II, Section 2, which names the President Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.  However, as the Commander in Chief of the armed forces, Presidents have sent troops to battle without an official war declaration.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Fairly frank assessment of NATO's European issues:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/nato’s-german-problem-who-needs-soldiers-or-weapons-51872

Quote

Internal assessments in Afghanistan concluded “German soldiers mostly don’t know how to use their weapons” and they “have no or little experience driving armored vehicles,” including not knowing how to avoid roadside bombs.

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[DerKommissar]

11 hours ago, Ivanov said:

Is spamming with memes acceptable now on this forum?

My apologies, friend. I forgot memes were a touchy subject in the EU, right now.

[hank24]

9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Fairly frank assessment of NATO's European issues:

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/nato’s-german-problem-who-needs-soldiers-or-weapons-51872

  

Not by accident is the name of this website National Interest (or better US National Interest). Well made propaganda. My personal opinion is that we Germans are not doing enough for our military, because I think, when you decide to have a military force, you have the obligation to train and equip it to the best standards possible and affordable.

But there is a large proportion in our population which is clearly opposing more military spending, maybe due to WW II, the reheating cold war with its nuclear threat here, all the lies they heard from people keen to start a war, e.g. Saddams weapons of mass destruction and some more incidents, never ending conflicts producing even more failed states, the failure to stop terrorism by military means, etc.

That these people have a significant influence on our military spending is a direct result of the democracy the US implemented here (for which we are thankful). So please accept, that this behaviour seems to be in our national interest as defined by democratic processes.

Is here anybody thinking that the US would spend less when Germany spends more? Is not the premier reason for US spending policy the ability to project substantial power which it would do with or without Germany?

But here are the good news: german chancellor, Frau Merkel, expressed that it would be a good idea to have a German aircraft carrier. Wow, I seldom laughed so much before.

 

Back to European Army. EDA is trying to hamonise things and coordinate industrial effort concerning defence matters.

The mixing of units is even going down to battalions, e.g. a dutch/german armored battalion. See https://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/start/aktuell/nachrichten/jahr2016/maerz2016/!ut/p/z1/hVDBToNAEP0arjtToBS9QdBUg8TYpi17MQuMgMFdsixgjB_vkia9aOMcZjJv3rx5GeBwAi7F1NbCtEqKzvY5D17jMN2n7o3rpn4SYbT17rL90xbR9-EAx_8o3I7xSkQIu4ogtxqb6xoe7IADfxeT-GS90qYjw0S5eIS8EbLq6FmV0RmwxIpYqaTl2GxImtbmWguj9GW7HLW2E9ZWkOMqiXF98bT6jsIgCQ8BbpKH-AUegdedKs7fiGThhTVwTW-kSbNRW7gxph9uHXRwnmdWjLKiYaZGs4ocXC6KzkHhYDEvwGCENraMZUN_STZqMHD6pQT9x32YZevpK6XjD0OwLLk!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/#Z7_B8LTL2922L4DA0AH3ENTMH0043

Language problems should be less after all these international deployments. Everybody is speaking english.

 

[Aragorn2002]

44 minutes ago, hank24 said:

Back to European Army. EDA is trying to hamonise things and coordinate industrial effort concerning defence matters.

The mixing of units is even going down to battalions, e.g. a dutch/german armored battalion. See https://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a/heer/start/aktuell/nachrichten/jahr2016/maerz2016/!ut/p/z1/hVDBToNAEP0arjtToBS9QdBUg8TYpi17MQuMgMFdsixgjB_vkia9aOMcZjJv3rx5GeBwAi7F1NbCtEqKzvY5D17jMN2n7o3rpn4SYbT17rL90xbR9-EAx_8o3I7xSkQIu4ogtxqb6xoe7IADfxeT-GS90qYjw0S5eIS8EbLq6FmV0RmwxIpYqaTl2GxImtbmWguj9GW7HLW2E9ZWkOMqiXF98bT6jsIgCQ8BbpKH-AUegdedKs7fiGThhTVwTW-kSbNRW7gxph9uHXRwnmdWjLKiYaZGs4ocXC6KzkHhYDEvwGCENraMZUN_STZqMHD6pQT9x32YZevpK6XjD0OwLLk!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/#Z7_B8LTL2922L4DA0AH3ENTMH0043

Language problems should be less after all these international deployments. Everybody is speaking english.

 

We couldn't wish for better Allies. And most Dutch soldiers speak German anyway. And a lot of Germans speak Dutch too, I've noticed.

But I have to say one thing. A more independent, stronger and better equipped EU army would be very welcome, but we will always need to remember that we have MUCH more in common with US, Britain and our other present NATO allies than we have with certain other powers. Let's hope the present irritation between these natural allies will disappear if those who cause it also disappear, because nobody is going to benefit from disunity, except our enemies. A lot of propaganda about these days. I sometimes wonder if that also didn't play a role in the Brexit and the alienation between US and Europe. Let's be careful.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Aragorn2002