Arty return fire : this footage gave me an idea

[Zveroboy1]

Would it make sense for scenario designers when simulating low intensity warfare like the type which sometimes takes place in the Donbass area to give players only a handful of rounds in order to model this type of artillery fire? You could give the player, i don't know, let's say a dozen rounds, it would depend on the caliber obviously and the number of tubes in the battery obviously. Maybe coupled with a TRP. And then another volley 20 minutes later or so when the gun has relocated. It could add an interesting tactical twist to have support fire with only limited size volleys. It wouldn't be appropriate for every type of battle of course.

Not actually recent footage and don't mind the clickbait "phenomenal artillery battle" part but impressive how far the return fire comes though. 80 seconds after the first shells have been fired and as the comment on twitter says, that includes the shell flight time as well. Well of course that's assuming it is not a random stray shell that just landed nearby.

 

[Combatintman]

I've been doing it for years - most of my COIN scenarios have between two to three insurgent mortar units with low ammunition loads appearing as reinforcements at intervals in the game. 

[Zveroboy1]

Nice trick. The AI tends to use harassing fire a lot though even with a full ammo load so it is maybe not that noticeable. I was thinking more for the player.

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Would it make sense for scenario designers when simulating low intensity warfare like the type which sometimes takes place in the Donbass area to give players only a handful of rounds in order to model this type of artillery fire? You could give the player, i don't know, let's say a dozen rounds,  

It could be done by using low count mortar ammo supply dumps that show up (reinforcement) at different locations.  Compelling the player to move his mortar team close enough to the ammo dump to fire off the supply and relocate to the next ammo dump and repeat.  I suspect ammo supply runners might be a way for the player to get around this. 

Having said all that I generally prefer to provide the player with command decisions that have benefits and consequences.  The player can then play the scenario to his style & tactics as much as possible within the game mechanics.       

 

7 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

impressive how far the return fire comes though. 80 seconds after the first shells have been fired 

Back in the 1980's I was working a detail with my platoon at a Division capability demonstration (I think that's what it was called).  Different weapon systems were live fired out at a range at Fort Bragg before a large crowd of dependents, invited civilians and visiting VIPs.  At one point a 120mm mortar towed behind a jeep came racing out of the woods to our right.  They unhooked, setup and fired off several rounds.  They then picked up, hooked up and raced off the field to our left (this was a huge field).  After watching Sheridan tanks fire main guns etc. I was not very impressed.  A few minutes after that mortar crew disappeared their rounds began to impact down range ...............  Then it dawned on me what they had accomplished.  No counter battery fire was going to get them.  That mortar demonstration turned out to be very impressive and I remember it to this day. .           

[JulianJ]

What was the weapon they were using?

[A Canadian Cat]

The description called it a mortar but that didn't seem right. It looked like a 105. When I looked at the listed artillery pieces used by Ukraine it didn't list anything smaller than 122 except for mortars. I looked at mortars anyway and found there is a thing called a gun mortar. WTF - I had no idea. Check out the 2B9 Vasilek 82 mm gun mortar in the section called Gun mortars here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_(weapon)

Quote

Gun-mortars are breech loaded mortars usually equipped with a hydraulic recoil mechanism, and sometimes equipped with an autoloader.

I don't think that is the exact gun mortar but it sure has similarities like the auto loader and the recoil mechanism.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The weapon above is indeed a 82mm Vasilek (my favourite artillery piece in CM:A), it's a clip fed auto-mortar.....I was looking for that video to post in this thread, so bravo to @Zveroboy1 for posting it.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[ikalugin]

13 hours ago, IanL said:

The description called it a mortar but that didn't seem right. It looked like a 105. When I looked at the listed artillery pieces used by Ukraine it didn't list anything smaller than 122 except for mortars. I looked at mortars anyway and found there is a thing called a gun mortar. WTF - I had no idea. Check out the 2B9 Vasilek 82 mm gun mortar in the section called Gun mortars here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_(weapon)

I don't think that is the exact gun mortar but it sure has similarities like the auto loader and the recoil mechanism.

 

152mm/122mm are the standard Soviet era weapons with 152mm being at BDE and above and 122mm being at BDE/regiment level as a rule of thumb. 122mm in Russian service are being replaced by 120mm gun-mortars, as those have higher power (comparable to 152mm).

There was also recorded use of 100mm ATGs in fire support role.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

11 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

.....I was looking for that video to post in this thread

Just noticed I was in the wrong thread.....I was actually looking for it for this thread:

It gets kinda confusing around here sometimes. 

[JulianJ]

When are we going to get it in CMBS?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The Russian army no longer uses the Vasilek, but apparently the VDV still has it, so there's some hope we might see it in a future CM:BS update.....Not sure if it's officially used by the Ukraine, apparently it's been seen on both sides in the Donbass, but that's not what CM:BS models.

It's also been suggested that the Vasilek was used in Syria, but AFAIK the SAA never adopted the weapon, so it's likely a recent import (of one side or the other, possibly both) and thus outside the scope of CM:SF2.

Just one more reason to love CM:A.....A whole battery firing together is really quite effective! 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

From the looks of this:

The Vasilek may not be with the VDV much longer. 

Quote

Self-propelled mortar "Drok" is designed to support airborne assault units of the Airborne Forces. It was developed in the walls of the Central Research Institute "Burevestnik" (Nizhny Novgorod) and is created as part of the experimental design work "Sketch".

The armament of the fourteen-ton machine makes it possible to hit targets at a distance of 6000 m. At the same time, the minimum firing range is only 100 m. The rate of fire reaches 12 rounds per minute. Ammunition includes 40 min. The crew consists of 4 fighters who can control the fire without leaving the car, which greatly increases the mobility and survivability of the complex.

The combat module is installed on the armored car chassis "Typhoon Airborne" (K-4386 "Wolverine" - approx.). Also, to combat ground and air targets, a remote-controlled machine-gun module was installed. Self-propelled mortar equipped with a complex of optical-electronic countermeasures.

According to the information support group of the Airborne Forces of the Russian Ministry of Defense, in 2019, this mortar system will be tested. After that, it will be adopted by the Airborne Forces.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Haiduk]

14 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not sure if it's officially used by the Ukraine

In early part of the war was standard mortar for airmobile brigades, also was in mountain brigade. Now still in use by air-assault troops and some mech., motorized and mountain troops in battalion's fire support companies, where 82 mm mortar platoon are established. Some is using 2B14, some 2B9.

[Haiduk]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 12:12 AM, IanL said:

The description called it a mortar but that didn't seem right. It looked like a 105. When I looked at the listed artillery pieces used by Ukraine it didn't list anything smaller than 122 except for mortars. I looked at mortars anyway and found there is a thing called a gun mortar. WTF - I had no idea. Check out the 2B9 Vasilek 82 mm gun mortar in the section called Gun mortars here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_(weapon)

I don't think that is the exact gun mortar but it sure has similarities like the auto loader and the recoil mechanism.

 

"Vasiliok" unlike usual mortar can shot with direct fire. But not too far - about 800 m. It has even HEAT ammunition for direct shot fire. But I didn't hear about such usage on Donbas. 

[ikalugin]

ATGs are more convenient for direct fire I guess.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

In early part of the war was standard mortar for airmobile brigades, also was in mountain brigade. Now still in use by air-assault troops and some mech., motorized and mountain troops in battalion's fire support companies, where 82 mm mortar platoon are established. Some is using 2B14, some 2B9.

Cheers.....So it looks like we probably can reasonably expect the Vasilek in the putative 'airborne forces' supplement for CM:BS. 

Presumably porting it over from CM:A should be doable.....Hope they will do a few MRLs too (and add the new, bigger, more precise types like Smerch too).

[HUSKER2142]

21 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The Russian army no longer uses the Vasilek, but apparently the VDV still has it, so there's some hope we might see it in a future CM:BS update.....Not sure if it's officially used by the Ukraine, apparently it's been seen on both sides in the Donbass, but that's not what CM:BS models.

 

I have not met them in VDV, but the units with mountain training, yes.

5 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Presumably porting it over from CM:A should be doable.....Hope they will do a few MRLs too (and add the new, bigger, more precise types like Smerch too).

Once upon a time I also asked for the introduction of the MLRS, at least the GRAD system, on large maps during the assault it would be useful.

P.S.

And also to give the possibility of AGL, to shoot from behind a closed position, without direct visibility of the target.

Edited April 25, 2019 by HUSKER2142

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Cheers for the further clarification.

Hope we will see them, just because, well.....I just test fired a full CM:A Vasilek battery against a regular, high morale, Mujahideen Company in reasonably typical Afghan terrain (2xlinear, heavy, maximum strikes) , the salvo lasted just about sixty seconds.

By the time it was over the  (only surviving) Afghan commander had eight men left (sort of) under his command, half of them walking wounded, all of them brittle beyond imagination! 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[JulianJ]

Where can I get one? Just the sort of thing I need for a South London runabout in these troubled times. I assume it has one uncareful owner (the VDV)? Can I have candy coloured wheel trim?