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markus544

30mm Strykers...get some

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Posted (edited)

One of BMP-3's big flaws (in the CM series) is all that stored ammo often goes off like a bomb when penetrated. Bradley has a similar problem when the stowed TOW missiles cook off. Stryker not so much (though the first Stryker destroyed in Iraq was due to an IED-cause fire cooking off a stored satchel charge). I assume the 30mm turret on Stryker doesn't pierce the hull and the ammo is stored topside,.

Edited by MikeyD

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but has the MGS even seen any combat?  I don't recall.

MGS saw combat in Iraq and barely escaped being declared 'combat ineffective' and withdrawn from service around 2007-8. The electronics situation was a nightmare, combat computers shutting down after overheating. There was an article in 'Defensetech.org' under the title 'New Stryker Sucking' where one frustrated soldier was quoted saying "I wish [the enemy] would just blow mine up so I could be done with it." Another soldier was quoted "Its a piece ___. Nothing works on it." The 105mm gun cannot reliably fire stockpiled NATO 105mm due to issues with steel shell casings jamming. The Pentagon had to hire Mecar to produce thicker-walled brass casing 105mm ammo just for the MGS gun.

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On 5/3/2019 at 6:06 PM, akd said:

I believe the plan is to either upgun or replace the Bradley.  Replacement would have larger caliber.

They are thinking of 50mm. So here it is - finally the new APC will have the gun caliber of Panzer III. I respect that 👌

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-u-s-armys-m2-bradley-replacement-has-a-big-gun-pro-1829796672
 

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3 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

The Germans are the only NATO country that uses 30mms, as far as I know.

Apart from Germans, there's 30mm cannon on Spanish Pizarro APC and Polish Rosomak. US Army was pretty impressed with the performance of Rosomaks in Afghanistan.

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On 5/3/2019 at 9:47 AM, DerKommissar said:

1. US Army's APC needs a bigger gun than its IFV? The BMP-3 has rudimentary aluminum armour, can't the 25mm APFSDS-T will not penetrate it? They'd be facing mostly BMP1s and 2s, is it worth the logistical hassle to use an uncommon caliber?

The 25mm on the Bradley firing its APFSDS DU rounds are more then adequate to penetrate a BMP-3 at combat ranges. 

The reason you are hearing talk about upgunning the next generation of IFVs to 30mm is similar to the reason why some are talking about increasing the cannon on an Abrams from 120mm to 130-140mm. The ballistics of current ammo and caliber sizes are essentially maxed out. As in, it will become harder and harder to squeeze more performance out of 25mm or 120mm ammunition, so some are proposing moving to higher calibers. Mind you, just because it is being considered, does not mean it's happening. 

On 5/3/2019 at 11:37 AM, DerKommissar said:

Which, brings me back to my original question. Is the 30mm Stryker going to be used as an IFV, or is it simply an upgrade to an APC? The latter makes more sense to me, and follows the world-wide trend.

The idea with the upgunned stryker is to give forward deployed units (2CR in Germany for example) more of a bite, so they can hold out longer on their own until heavier assets can get in theater. The short answer to your question here is that yes, the upgunned stryker is going to be misused and abused, badly. The main reason the upgun package was originally proposed was because Captains kept getting their stryker companies wiped out at NTC (using them like Bradleys, attacking out over open terrain against a dug in or unknown enemy) and writing reports on how the stryker is under-equipped for the "modern battlefield." Then, with the conflict in Ukraine in 2014, many used it as a real world example of how the stryker would under-perform. 

On 5/3/2019 at 7:11 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

It also doesn't carry much ammo for it's whopping gun, and has very little armour.....So while it looks kind of like a tank and consequently there's a temptation to use it like one, it isn't one and you shouldn't.

Exactly. The MGS was a great idea on paper. In practice however, it's pretty much a disaster all around. Though I will say that, when it is working, it is decent enough at destroying fortifications (like bunkers/hardened positions) and the 105mm round can actually do plenty of damage to contemporary adversary MBTs. But as you pointed out, it doesn't carry enough ammo and is a glass cannon, so in the end it really isn't worth much. 

On 5/3/2019 at 5:28 PM, markus544 said:

So the 105 mm round does not get the job done.  The 30 mm round will.  Does the NATO forces use 5.56 or 7.62.  It goes all the way back to the MBT-70 disaster when we tried to work with Germany.  We went with the 105 mm then went to the 120 mm which in the end was a good choice, but has the MGS even seen any combat?  I don't recall.

Not really sure what you mean here but,
1) NATO uses both 5.56 (standard rifle cartridge, ex M-4/G-36/etc) and 7.62 (standard medium machine gun cartridge, ex M240/FN Mag/etc)
2) The 105mm round is good at what it is designed to do, punch holes in IFVs and some MBTs. The 30mm is designed to do what the 25mm does, which is engage infantry/fortifications/light armored vehicles/vehicles.
3) The US abandoned the MBT-70 project, it was the West Germans who stuck with it for a while trying to get it to work
4) The first iterations of the M1 Abrams were equipped with the British 105mm gun. It wasn't until 1985 that the M1A1 was equipped with the German 120mm
5) The MGS has seen light combat in Iraq (and I think Afghanistan too but not 100% on that) @MikeyD's summary is spot on

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

1. That's pretty good. But, the Bushmaster should be able to handle it with the tungsten-core M919 APFSDS-T, at reasonable ranges. No need to get the depleted uranium rods out.

  1. M919 has tungsten penetrator with DU core.
  2. M919 penetration is 31mm/60degrees at 2000m. BMP-3 frontal aspect is protected by 66-82mm of spaced armor so the general opinion is M919 has insufficient penetration against it.
18 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

2. Are all the BMP-1s phased out yet?

Mostly put in storage. First line troops use BMP-3 and BMP-2 with the latter being gradually phased out by the former.

18 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

I've been curious as to how the BMP-3 preformed in Yemen, with the UAE. I couldn't find any information in English. Any word from the other side of the pond?

UAE is very happy with BMP-3 firepower for the use of BMP-3 combat module became a standard requirement for all potential contenders for future UAE IFV contracts - Patria, Nexter etc. The locally produced Rabdan that was finally selected is also using it. In terms of mobility BMP-3 proved to be a very reliable though UAE predictably prefers a wheeled platform - tracked base is obviously an overkill for the kind of terrain UAE is facing. As per the armor BMP-3 is deployed in armored spearheads mixed with Leclercs so we may assume UAE considers BMP-3 protection level as high enough. UAE uses BMP-3 with these armored task forces but does not allow even uparmored M-ATV near them. So far there was only one confirmed kill - BMP-3 blown up by a heavy IED.

Edited by IMHO

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Just to put numbers on the BMP discussion, for Russia:

Active BMP-1 - 500

Active BMP-2 - 3,000

Active BMP-3 - 510

Storage BMP-1 - 7,000

Storage BMP-2 - 1,500

Active BTR-80A - 100

Active BTR-82 - 1,000

Source: Military Balance 2018

Its going to take a while to work through all of those BMP-2s.

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https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2019/04/11/logbook-part-i-the-uaes-bmp-3-ifv-in-yemen/

I had seen this a few months ago.  Mentioned that BMP-3s were involved in early battles, but after that, the vehicles vulnerability might have been the reason a large number were dedicated to rear area security and garrison duties.  There is speculation that a number have been transferred to local unconventional forces.

You have to read the whole thing and kind of put 2+2 together yourself, but UAE's BMP-3s seem to have been less active in front line combat than people thought.

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