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The Truelife* Mode PBEM DAR - RockinHarry German POV


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15 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

while preserving some the mentioned german command language peculiarities.

This can definitely add some flavour to the text. I think it was @StieliAlpha who said that a peculiar thing about German command language is that the assumption of success is often built into it somehow. 

English does this as well to some extent, as in "Company A will take the village of ... before 07:00". But maybe German has stronger expressions. As in the example of "for our attack to promise success" above.

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2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

This can definitely add some flavour to the text. I think it was @StieliAlpha who said that a peculiar thing about German command language is that the assumption of success is often built into it somehow. 

English does this as well to some extent, as in "Company A will take the village of ... before 07:00". But maybe German has stronger expressions. As in the example of "for our attack to promise success" above.

Yep, my favourite example from Bundeswehr field manuals for Armoured Reccon Troops read like: The “Panzeraufklärer“ makes contact with the enemy and fights them successfully.“

IIRC, after my service time the Bundeswehr tried to revise such non-sense.

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25 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

Bundeswehr field manuals for Armoured Reccon Troops read like: The “Panzeraufklärer“ makes contact with the enemy and fights them successfully.“

Maybe they were afraid of not giving clear enough orders...

"Oh, you meant we were to fight the enemy SUCCESSFULLY? Why didn't you just say so?"

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34 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Maybe they were afraid of not giving clear enough orders...

May be. You know, people can die without clearvadvise. Therefore this highlight from a general field manual: “At a water depth of 1.3m, the soldier independently starts with swimming movements.”

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9 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Maybe they were afraid of not giving clear enough orders...

"Oh, you meant we were to fight the enemy SUCCESSFULLY? Why didn't you just say so?"

lol :D  That could well have been taken from bonvi´s Sturmtruppen comic, in case you know that. My recommended read anyway! Well... not quite so. Leaders were simply taught to avoid any "maybe" or "possibly" , or "at all costs" in orders, keeping them short and clear, same time emphasizing the leaders determination on his intentions. Also to raise confidence of subordinates and soldiers on their leaders abilities. A leader ordering "If possible, take that objective X!" would already imply the leader himself has little confidence in possible success of ordered actions. But positive exaggerations were to be avoided as well. Simple psychological things actually.  @StieliAlpha ´s example seems taken out of context a little bit I think. It looks like the phrase was rather part of descriptive actions to be applied by Panzer recon troops subsequentially.

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1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said:

Yep, my favourite example from Bundeswehr field manuals for Armoured Reccon Troops read like: The “Panzeraufklärer“ makes contact with the enemy and fights them successfully.“

IIRC, after my service time the Bundeswehr tried to revise such non-sense.

Unfortunately I have no contemporary manuals, but basically the psychological thing remains the same, not just for german methods if you grasp the actual meaning of phrases in military language. Much of that sounds oftenly strange or plain nonsense to non militaries. 

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50 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

May be. You know, people can die without clearvadvise. Therefore this highlight from a general field manual: “At a water depth of 1.3m, the soldier independently starts with swimming movements.”

yeah... that John Baum effect if you translate stuff too literally. :D

That already deserves a seperate thread, as I seem to water down my DAR with too many OT´s.

Edited by RockinHarry
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4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

This can definitely add some flavour to the text. I think it was @StieliAlpha who said that a peculiar thing about German command language is that the assumption of success is often built into it somehow. 

English does this as well to some extent, as in "Company A will take the village of ... before 07:00". But maybe German has stronger expressions. As in the example of "for our attack to promise success" above.

Yeah, not actually a typical german orders pecularity and in fact "strong" expressions were rather to be avoided, as was schematism generally. Strong expressions were rather an indication for leaders not quite getting the grasp of their own role, when it comes to psychological matters. So that leading by example thing can be a backburner on seasoned troops if i.e using expressions like "take objective X at all costs" . That maybe made some impressions on most fanatical SS and other ideologically brain washed troopers, but quite less so on normal seasoned veterans. "That officer is sending us to certain death! He´s just after getting a nice medal on his neck at the cost of our lives!" Take "Stransky" from "Steiner- Cross of Iron"  movie as an exmaple.

Edited by RockinHarry
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Here´s my bits of translation of concerning part from some the neat books in my possession:

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Command Language

Clarity and unambiguity is the main thing. Simplicity and brevity in phraseology is to be aimed for. Thereby it must not be resorted to the fault of impairing clarity by overly applying shortness. It´s a matter of practice to find the right amount.

Expressions connected with certain terms by our regulations, are to be used unaltered. Also beware of using obsolete and lightly confusing expressions. It has not to read: "The battailon defends decisively". It has to read: "The battailon defends!"

Bland expressions and phrases like "preferably", "might (to)", "could/can", "would like (to)" etc. or not clearly to be interpreted expressions like "to oppose the enemy", "to try" as well as exaggerating expressions and sayings like in example "urgently", "vigorously", "desperately" etc. are to be avoided.

The usage of designations like "right", "left", "forwards/ahead", "backwards", "this side of", "beyond" may oftenly lead to misapprehensions. In the field, always supplement such expressions by pointing with the hand. 

In written orders and if doubts seem possible, utilize unobjectionably clear designations at cardinal direction as i.e "eastwards", "westwards" etc.

Apart from that, attention is to be paid that "right" and "left" is always to be comprehended in direction of view on the enemy, as is start and end of marching troops always in direction of march. Fronts are to be denoted right to left, enemy fronts thus from left wing to right wing.

Edited by RockinHarry
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12 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Thanks! It´s my overall impression as well. Syntax used is almost the same as german originals and much of it really translated literally. Still a great achievment, considering that Baum is non german speaker and translated by use of dictionaries and translator apps (read on his website). Guess as native english speaker, though somewhat hard to read, one still can grasp the essence of it all fairly easy. Auto translators surely will make a complete mess of it all, considering the very specific topics and peculiarities of the at that times military language.

I´ll somehow attempt to get it all in a format that makes it comfortably to read generally, while preserving some the mentioned german command language peculiarities.

I agree with @Bulletpoint, there is definitely room for improvement. While most of it is readily understood, there is a lot of literal translation in there. The second paragraph on the page 140 scan is very stilted for example. Also munition is never used in English to describe a unit's ammunition state (note 2 on the page 140 scan).

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3 hours ago, Combatintman said:

I agree with @Bulletpoint, there is definitely room for improvement. While most of it is readily understood, there is a lot of literal translation in there. The second paragraph on the page 140 scan is very stilted for example. Also munition is never used in English to describe a unit's ammunition state (note 2 on the page 140 scan).

I´d assume those folks just after the unique info from those period manuals, not having too much of a problem with that. As I understood it´s mostly aimed at reenactors and others interested in the matter. So this then should suffice for the purpose I think. I also sometimes have bits of issue with reading US/BR manuals, for the different terminology, writing styles used and such, but generally I get the grasp fairly easily. Considering John Baum seems to have translated ~1000 pages or more of partly extremely rare german period manuals, it remains quite an achievement. Thinking about purchasing one or the other from the site as well, for the rareness and high prices of originals, if any still are offered anywhere at all. I´m just after info for scientific evaluations, so despite some the mentioned quirks, they should do the purpose as equally well as originals. The way they´re translated also makes it quite simple for me to retranslate in mind for me beeing german native speaker.

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Turn 2 Execution

 .....just few seconds in, ..."Feindfahrzeug!" (enemy vehicle!) someone shouting of 1. Squad /1. Plt, the lone point of my attack near Sextons house. Just when they´re about to dismount their 251 few seconds later, another "Feindfahrzeug!" Two carriers were just about to enter the churchyard, hardly 50m away and again vanishing out of sight.

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1. squad deployed, then rushed toward Sextons house when a burst of machine gun fire hit into their midst. Enemy shooter unknown. One guy fell and guess who it was? Staff sergeant Kunick, the +1 leader of 1. Squad. :P So this was my first loss in the game.

The squads remaining men made it safe into the house, though a bit "nervous". Sergeant Bachofen, now taking over the squad turned out to be an equally able man, with a +1. Could have been worse. B)

Just few meters to that door! Oh boy....

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2. Squad / 1.Plt, latecomer to the party (30 sec) dismounts the same moment 1. Squad enters Sextons house. Then rushing forward to that hedge lining the churchyard and taking position just before turn ended.

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Remainder of 1. Plt still on the way

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HMG teams of 4. Plt. reached B, dismounted and hurried toward their potential combat positions in some houses. These would hopefully provide the desired commanding lines toward the church and the towns main western entry with that crossroads. Little later, another "Feindfahrzeug" from one the HMG teams. And few more again in quick succession! Sergeant Schreiner from 1. Section HQ HMG got something in his sights! Looks like a number of turretted AC´s and infantry just entering the town near the crossroads! Deploy and get ready!

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WTF!?

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2. Platoon leader 251/17 just found and got into an overwatch position, when a third carrier came into sight near the churchyard about 200m off. Just few seconds before turn ended, one quick burst 20mm put that in flames. It turned out this carrier took to sharp a turn, scratching a hedge, and slowing down enough to become a nice first kill for the popgun 251. Some survivors jumped from the burning vehicle and got away unharmed. One was not amongst them anymore:

Don´t hang that lifebuoy on the board wall they said.

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Just one short moment before the carrier went up in flames, the other 251/17 of 1.Plt passed into sight. That could well have been a friendly kill! :wacko:

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Overview End Turn 2

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Edited by RockinHarry
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28 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Nice to see that they sometimes miss when aiming for the MG guy :)

lol :D indeed! Loosing the MG would´ve hurt more, since I got that good leader replacement immediately.

Edit: Would be interesting to know how the lost leader replacement is determined in the game. Is there some doctrinal stuff involved, or rather just unit experience and such? 

Edited by RockinHarry
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1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

Would be interesting to know how the lost leader replacement is determined in the game. Is there some doctrinal stuff involved, or rather just unit experience and such?

Their customer service guy John once told me by email that each individual soldier actually has his own stats. I assume that's also why sometimes even with a green squad, there will be some lone die-hard who keeps fighting even though his mates are all surrendering.

Edited by Bulletpoint
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2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

1. squad deployed, then rushed toward Sextons house when a burst of machine gun fire hit into their midst. Enemy shooter unknown. One guy fell and guess who it was? Staff sergeant Kunick, the +1 leader of 1. Squad. :P So this was my first loss in the game.

Thou, don't you have to loose both the, Squad Leader (2 star), and the 2nd in Command, Corporal (1 star), before you end up getting a Negative Leadership Modifier...So, if you still have your Corporal, then you retain that +1 Leadership ? 

Edited by JoMc67
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38 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

Thou, don't you have to loose both the, Squad Leader (2 star), and the 2nd in Command, Corporal (1 star), before you end up getting a Negative Leadership Modifier...So, if you still have your Corporal, then you retain that +1 Leadership ? 

No idea. I´´ll watch out if I got more losses. Likely as @Bulletpoint stated all more of a random chance.

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Turn 3

Situation 1. Coy:

Enemy contact! Half a dozen turreted AC were sighted near the western crossroads (CR). Apparently on the move towards the church area (A), my initial objective for 1. Plt. Enemy point units composed of carriers and possibly mounted with infantry made it to the church, just before I could do the same. That´s going to become a delicate situation for my point platoon, still not entirely deployed at the objective and yet partly in approach. It seems enemy AC´s are able to command 1. Plt deployment area with fire right along the street leading from (CR). Success for keep pressing the point´s attack (on 1) might still be possible, though more dangerous now. Also considering I held back 2. Plt (mounted) near (B) for letting 1. Plt movements finish first. My initial plan was 2. Plt to immediately follow 1. Plt in order to get both firmly established at the objective (A), before any enemy would appear on the scene. The time lost through initial traffic congestions, is not to be made good anymore.

Heavy weapons 4. Plt is about to occupy good supporting positions in houses in (B) towards (A), as is parts of 2. Plt. 251´s nearby. 3. Plt (dismounted, reserve) reached its deployment area in (B).One split off Stummel and another 251 reached supportive positions towards (A) on the far left flank.

Situation 2. Coy:

Unchanged and no enemy contact yet. Is still on the move towards (A) and (B), with task to seek and occupy commanding positions towards W and NW.


Decision 1. Coy:

Remainder of 1. Plt  finishes moves to (A) and dismounts in cover of Sextons House (likely blocking fire lane towards enemy near CR), followed by immediate attack on the church. Point 1. Squad remains in Sextons House to cover towards (CR). 1. Coy 2nd and 4th Plt remain at (B) and provide effective covering fire on any enemy that may appear at (A). Any of 1. Coy units in (B) not yet in good overwatch positions towards (A) seek, find and join to provide further support for 1. Plt in (A) to help the attack. One HMG team with currently having sight on the (CR) deploys weapon and keeps observing towards W and NW.

Bn HQ with staff, a sniper and Schreck team, to procede towards left hand edge of (C) and find overwatch position for more of the area towards the west. This also in preparation for Bn HQ to call for mortar support, in case valid enemy targets coming in sight. 

Decision 2. Coy:

Task remains unchanged. Occupy commanding positions in (C) and (D).

Plan and Decision for turn 3:

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Edited by RockinHarry
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2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

what actually is the amount of screens allowed in a single one posting? Have 13 in preparation for T3 execution phase.

No idea - let us know if it is less than 14. :) There was a time earlier where the limit was five but a forum update lifted that. I have no idea if it set the limit at a new number or removed it altogether.

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30 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Ok, I'll ask: Why is that house called Sexton's House anyway?

Simple terrain christening for easier map reference in military reports and such. Agreed with Matt to use that in both our DAR, although no idea if he does. Was spontaneous idea. That small corner point building seemed suited to be home for the churches caretaker, or sexton/sacristan.

Edit: Ok, in english it´s called terrain baptism, as it seems. Just found in the net:

"terrain baptism"

"The terrain set is a military method for the designation of visible terrain points for quick orientation. It is used for simplifying the target response and applies to fire commands and position reports. At the same time, location data can be concealed in such a way that the opponent can not easily assign it in a intercepted radio message. In order for these to be understood by those affected, terrain battles between adjacent units or unit units must be coordinated with each other. The necessity of a landing stage results, on the one hand, from the usually inadequate map equipment of the troops, and, on the other hand, from the need to have a network of reference points in the area as close as possible. The determination of estimated or measured MGRS values for a terrain point usually takes too long in the case of an enemy. Only with a dense network of reference points can be made sufficiently accurate reports about observations."

 

********SPOILER:********

Some of the early games battles revolved around that particular buidling, More terrain christening might come in the future.

Edited by RockinHarry
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